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Etem Traded To Rangers, In Exchange For Hagelin:

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This.

 

I was reading down this thread from the start and it somehow took on a life of its own with "Murray can't evaluate forward talent..." which I find to be rather silly for the very reason you point out above.

 

Draft position plays a part in this sure, but they haven't been very good with their forward selections in the upper half of the draft. 

 

The 13 forwards drafted by the Ducks in the 1st two rounds since 06 in no particular order. 

 

Holland - Bust

McMillian--Bust

Etem -- looks like a bust

Palms -- to early to tell, may become a decent( yet one dimensional) 2nd liner..

Rakell - decent shot at becoming a top 6 forward.

Ritchie- Obviously a good prospect we shall see.  

Dechemps - Bust

Tangradi- Bust

O'Dell-Bust

DSP- decent 3rd line grinder

Swan- Bust

Kerdilles and Sorensen are solid prospects so well see. 

 

 

Not a very good track record.

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Draft position plays a part in this sure, but they haven't been very good with their forward selections in the upper half of the draft.

The 13 forwards drafted by the Ducks in the 1st two rounds since 06 in no particular order.

Holland - Bust

McMillian--Bust

Etem -- looks like a bust

Palms -- to early to tell, may become a decent( yet one dimensional) 2nd liner..

Rakell - decent shot at becoming a top 6 forward.

Ritchie- Obviously a good prospect we shall see.

Dechemps - Bust

Tangradi- Bust

O'Dell-Bust

DSP- decent 3rd line grinder

Swan- Bust

Kerdilles and Sorensen are solid prospects so well see.

Not a very good track record.

I agree. The Ducks essentially traded 2 players picked in the 1st round (Etem and Palmieri) for a player (Hagelin) they could have picked as late as the 6th round. I think the trade is fine, but forward drafting needs to improve. Edited by SCM

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I think they've done OK.  It's easy to project the top five or ten guys to be sure bets.  When you normally make the playoffs, high picks just don't come around too often.  

 

Ducks made the decision to move on from Palmieri and Etem, and landed a very good player in Hagelin.  

 

 

Where Palmieri and Etem were drafted is irrelevant at this point.  IMO, some teams hang on to those high draft pick players too long, because they don't want to admit they missed on the pick. 

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Another thing to consider on the subject of Murray & Co's forward drafting is the draft position. How many top 10-15 picks has this team had in his tenure? Forwards are easier to scout and project than defensemen. So it stands to reason that teams will have an easier time identifying forward talent than defensive talent (or goalies for that matter). That forward talents gets snatched up earlier in the draft, and for a team consistently drafting at the bottom of the 1st round, it's going to be a challenge finding those hidden gems. The guys hanging around at that point will have some warts. I think the team has done fairly well with that in mind.

 

That leaves many more hidden gems in the defensive pool, which lines up much better with our typical draft position. So it may be more a matter of circumstance leading to the team being better at drafting d-men, rather than being inept at spotting and developing froward talent. And by now, I'm sure it's just become something they have found success with and are choosing to build on it. Go with what is working. 

 

Bobby and Ritchie are the only early picks we've had recently for forwards, and we did just fine there. Lindholm's year was so thick with d-men that by the #6 spot we were getting a d-man whether we liked it or not. Fowler may be the one guy that could have been a forward pick instead, but given the organizations anemic defensive depth, he was a God-send.

 

Tried explaining this to some of  the Duck fans on HFBoards, but, as usual, AD has delivered it better than me. Good D-men are far harder to find and somewhat of a gamble. Meanwhile, offensive players are far easier to spot and tend to go early. 

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Damn, really bummed to see Emers go. He just didn't crack the top six and was made redundant by the organizations swelling depth of good young bottom six players. Best of luck to him in NY.

 

Etem -----> Hagelin

 

Devo -----> Sekac

 

 

Seems that we are moving our young physical wingers for Euro skill guys. Yet another seasonal identity change by Murray. I just hope we aren't getting too soft as the other western teams are beefing up. Especially with Bels leaving as well. Man, this team is moving in the wrong direction for my liking, I like truculence, not flashy no-touch hockey.

 

Save us Nick Ritchie, your goonery is our only hope! I don't want to be the Wings!

 

That truculence didn't get us past Chicago though... :ph34r:

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That truculence didn't get us past Chicago though... :ph34r:

 

The team's simple gameplan of an aggressive forecheck and high puck pressure, both punctuated by the effective use of physicality, allowed them to carry the play through the playoffs and through the Hawks series until about game 4. It was at that point that the Ducks stopped hitting and got away from their identity that the series turned on its head. I think truculence is too fundamental to our game to go full speed and skill now. I'd only feel comfortable going that route if we went in a full possession style direction (hence my Det reference) as opposed to the dump and chase and heavy forechecking game we employ under Bruce. Which would require the skill players throughout the lineup that, despite Murray's push in that direction being the flavor of the month, we don't quite have enough of yet.

 

I know your comment was tongue-in-cheek though, it's a fair counter. Touche my friend.  ;)

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Draft position plays a part in this sure, but they haven't been very good with their forward selections in the upper half of the draft. 

 

The 13 forwards drafted by the Ducks in the 1st two rounds since 06 in no particular order. 

 

Holland - Bust

McMillian--Bust

Etem -- looks like a bust

Palms -- to early to tell, may become a decent( yet one dimensional) 2nd liner..

Rakell - decent shot at becoming a top 6 forward.

Ritchie- Obviously a good prospect we shall see.  

Dechemps - Bust

Tangradi- Bust

O'Dell-Bust

DSP- decent 3rd line grinder

Swan- Bust

Kerdilles and Sorensen are solid prospects so well see. 

 

 

Not a very good track record.

 

I wouldn't define Etem, DSP, or Palmieri, even Holland as busts... they're all mid or late first-round picks playing regular gigs in the NHL. Pretty far from busts actually particularly when 20% of first-round fail to play 50 NHL games in their career...

 

McMillen was a late 3rd round pick and has played 150+ NHL games - that's way above average right there...

 

Your standard is way too high.

Edited by ZTHER
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I wouldn't define Etem, DSP, or Palmieri, even Holland as busts... they're all mid or late first-round picks playing regular gigs in the NHL. Pretty far from busts actually particularly when 20% of first-round fail to play 50 NHL games in their career...

McMillen was a late 3rd round pick and has played 150+ NHL games - that's way above average right there...

Your standard is way too high.

I was talking about Logan McMillan. 19th overall pick.

And yes Holland was a bust. Etem appears to be in the same trajectory. I wouldn't call palms or Dsp busts.

9 years worth of drafting and not a single guy so far has even turned into a 2nd liner.

Obviously way to early to tell on Ritchie and Kerdilles. Also maybe Palms gets there.

But overall I'd say that's pretty poor.

Your standards are too low.

Edited by liquid13

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I was talking about Logan McMillan. 19th overall pick.

And yes Holland was a bust. Etem appears to be in the same trajectory. I wouldn't call palms or Dsp busts.

9 years worth of drafting and not a single guy so far has even turned into a 2nd liner.

Obviously way to early to tell on Ritchie and Kerdilles. Also maybe Palms gets there.

But overall I'd say that's pretty poor.

Your standards are too low.

 

Logan McMillan was Burke's pick in 2007. Murray has been the final word only since the 2009 draft...

 

So no, Murray hasn't found a Tarasenko but the first-round since 2009 is littered with 3rd and 4th liners (and non-NHL'ers)... and the bottom half of those drafts (16-30) have yielded just a handful of Top 6 forwards:

 

2009: Krieder*, Johansson

2010: Tarasenko

2011: Nobody

2012: Hertl, Teravainen*

 

That's a solid 3 or a liberal 5 top 6 forwards in total in 4 years TOTAL in the NHL out of 39 forwards drafted in the second half of the first-round. Are we also going to say that Ken Holland can't seem to draft good forwards in the 1st round?

 

Players picked after the first 15?

My standard of success would be 350+ NHL games... after the first-round 50+ NHL games. Considering that less than 1/2 of those guys will play even a single NHL game, I think my standards are pretty bang on. I wouldn't say it's very rare, but finding a top six forward past the top 10 or 12 is extremely hit and miss.

 

This is a great piece... 

 

http://www.tsn.ca/statistically-speaking-expected-value-of-nhl-draft-picks-1.317819

Edited by ZTHER
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As much as I love Etem, I'm glad he's gone...he was only good for dumping in the puck, or making a bad shot from the blue line...Ducks are better off without him...I wish him luck

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Logan McMillan was Burke's pick in 2007. Murray has been the final word only since the 2009 draft...

 

So no, Murray hasn't found a Tarasenko but the first-round since 2009 is littered with 3rd and 4th liners (and non-NHL'ers)... and the bottom half of those drafts (16-30) have yielded just a handful of Top 6 forwards:

 

2009: Krieder*, Johansson

2010: Tarasenko

2011: Nobody

2012: Hertl, Teravainen*

 

That's a solid 3 or a liberal 5 top 6 forwards in total in 4 years TOTAL in the NHL out of 39 forwards drafted in the second half of the first-round. Are we also going to say that Ken Holland can't seem to draft good forwards in the 1st round?

 

Players picked after the first 15?

My standard of success would be 350+ NHL games... after the first-round 50+ NHL games. Considering that less than 1/2 of those guys will play even a single NHL game, I think my standards are pretty bang on. I wouldn't say it's very rare, but finding a top six forward past the top 10 or 12 is extremely hit and miss.

 

http://www.tsn.ca/statistically-speaking-expected-value-of-nhl-draft-picks-1.317819

BM and the scouting staff don't get a pass because Burke was in charge. 

 

You're also leaving a ton of names off your list here.

 

top 6 forwards ( in the 1st two rounds since 06 not counting picks 1-14)

 

2006: Chris Stewart , Giroux, Foligno, Lucic

2007: Pacioretty, Perron, Simmonds

2008: Eberle, Stephan

2009: Krieder, Johansson, O'Reilly, Silverberg, Tatar

2010: Taresenko, Bjugstad, Kevin Hayes ( not quite but will be), Brock Nelson ( same), Toffoli

 

 

we are getting a little premature from this point on imo,but there are still a few guys emerging in the range Im talking about. I expect more will emerge in the next few years. 

2011: Saad, 

2012: Hertl , Teravinen( to early but looks really good) , Pearson( definitely to early to tell but kid looks good) 

 

 

 

 

It is very hit and miss to find a top 6 forward after the top 10-12 picks like you say, but the Ducks so far have yet to hit at all. 

And if we are to use the range you imposed here, even if Ritchie becomes a top 6 guy like he supposed to, he wouldn't count being the # 10 pick. 

Edited by liquid13

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BM and the scouting staff don't get a pass because Burke was in charge.

You're also leaving a ton of names off your list here.

top 6 forwards ( in the 1st two rounds since 06 not counting picks 1-14)

2006: Chris Stewart , Giroux, Foligno, Lucic

2007: Pacioretty, Perron, Simmonds

2008: Eberle, Stephan

2009: Krieder, Johansson, O'Reilly, Silverberg, Tatar

2010: Taresenko, Bjugstad, Kevin Hayes ( not quite but will be), Brock Nelson ( same), Toffoli

we are getting a little premature from this point on imo,but there are still a few guys emerging in the range Im talking about. I expect more will emerge in the next few years.

2011: Saad,

2012: Hertl , Teravinen( to early but looks really good) , Pearson( definitely to early to tell but kid looks good)

It is very hit and miss to find a top 6 forward after the top 10-12 picks like you say, but the Ducks so far have yet to hit at all.

And if we are to use the range you imposed here, even if Ritchie becomes a top 6 guy like he supposed to, he wouldn't count being the # 10 pick.

Bad luck? Drafting is a narrative-driven crapshoot and analysis is always in hindsight? *shrugs*

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^^^ That's sweet, the deal and the sweater. I'd love to see Emers put it all together in NY, maybe AV has the tonic.

 

Yeah, I'd hate that to happen because NYR would have gotten themselves a very, very good player. Wonder if Etem will change summer coaches. His uncle was saying he's remained loyal to same guy for years, but that'll be difficult if he's in NYR, no? Could help him if he's with someone new.

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Yeah, I'd hate that to happen because NYR would have gotten themselves a very, very good player. Wonder if Etem will change summer coaches. His uncle was saying he's remained loyal to same guy for years, but that'll be difficult if he's in NYR, no? Could help him if he's with someone new.

 

Not sure about the summer coach thing, I didn't catch that one.  I would expect him to come back here during the summers, so maybe he'll train with the same peeps. Etem did say in his first real NYR interview that he looks forward to being in a city away from his home stomping grounds where he can focus purely on hockey. That alone could help him get over the hump, and maybe he decides to train with someone else to shake things up as well. Who knows.

 

I always get mixed feelings about these trades, you don't want to see the team throw in the towel on young talent just to watch them break out for the next team. But I still root for the individuals, and it's nice to see them succeed as it helps to show that the team does a solid job of scouting and drafting, even if the player wasn't a perfect fit for the big club. Development comes into question though...

 

We're in win-now mode anyhow, you have to swap guys who aren't what you need them to be when the window is open for the guys who are right now, even if the better player gets away from you in the long run. That's the price to be paid for winning.

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BM and the scouting staff don't get a pass because Burke was in charge. 

 

You're also leaving a ton of names off your list here.

 

top 6 forwards ( in the 1st two rounds since 06 not counting picks 1-14)

 

2006: Chris Stewart , Giroux, Foligno, Lucic

2007: Pacioretty, Perron, Simmonds

2008: Eberle, Stephan

2009: Krieder, Johansson, O'Reilly, Silverberg, Tatar

2010: Taresenko, Bjugstad, Kevin Hayes ( not quite but will be), Brock Nelson ( same), Toffoli

 

 

we are getting a little premature from this point on imo,but there are still a few guys emerging in the range Im talking about. I expect more will emerge in the next few years. 

2011: Saad, 

2012: Hertl , Teravinen( to early but looks really good) , Pearson( definitely to early to tell but kid looks good) 

 

 

 

 

It is very hit and miss to find a top 6 forward after the top 10-12 picks like you say, but the Ducks so far have yet to hit at all. 

And if we are to use the range you imposed here, even if Ritchie becomes a top 6 guy like he supposed to, he wouldn't count being the # 10 pick. 

 

Burke had the final say and you can lump at least a dozen teams into the same boat as Anaheim as far as missing players late in the draft. I'd also add that the chips often fall a certain way that favors picking defensemen over forwards and vice versa.

Come the end of the day Murray's been able through trades and the draft, assemble one of the best prospect pools in the league while icing one of the best. Even in hindsight, that's a tough record to knock and when it's all summed up, few if any GM's have done a better job...

Edited by ZTHER

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Not sure about the summer coach thing, I didn't catch that one.  I would expect him to come back here during the summers, so maybe he'll train with the same peeps. Etem did say in his first real NYR interview that he looks forward to being in a city away from his home stomping grounds where he can focus purely on hockey. That alone could help him get over the hump, and maybe he decides to train with someone else to shake things up as well. Who knows.

 

I always get mixed feelings about these trades, you don't want to see the team throw in the towel on young talent just to watch them break out for the next team. But I still root for the individuals, and it's nice to see them succeed as it helps to show that the team does a solid job of scouting and drafting, even if the player wasn't a perfect fit for the big club. Development comes into question though...

 

We're in win-now mode anyhow, you have to swap guys who aren't what you need them to be when the window is open for the guys who are right now, even if the better player gets away from you in the long run. That's the price to be paid for winning.

 

Agreed, but it really depends on the player. EE was given multiple chances to step up and perform, but he just simply didn't have the goods. Meanwhile, I'd hang onto to young prospects like Theodore, Ritchie, etc. Tbh, if Etem does go to NYR and breaks out, I'll probably be kind of mad at him. I mean, why couldn't he do that here? Can't say I'd feel the same towards Palms. I thought he had the good, but just simply wasn't a fit here. In fact, I fully expect him to do really, really well in NJ.

 

I like the moves that BM has made so far. We've gotten faster in the top 6 and bigger in the bottom 6.

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Bored, decided to finally read some NYR fan reaction to this trade (I was traveling when this one happened, vacationing for a couple weeks after). I just stumbled on this gem:

" Will not miss Hags flying down the wing and shooting a soft lob into the goalies chest. "

That fella will love Etem, then!

Edited by norge25
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Rangers fans and beat writers are tearing the kid apart right now. Lots of debate as to whether he ought to be waived.

Poor guy.

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Rangers fans and beat writers are tearing the kid apart right now. Lots of debate as to whether he ought to be waived.

Poor guy.

What have they been saying about him? I haven't really paid much attention to anyone else's training camp.

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Rangers fans and beat writers are tearing the kid apart right now. Lots of debate as to whether he ought to be waived.

Poor guy.

 

Not surprised at all. 

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Feel bad for the kid.  

 

Hoping the NY fans/media aren't expecting a clone of Hags.  Problem with Etem is he can't be sent down without first clearing waivers.  He either makes the team, or is claimed on waivers.  

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What have they been saying about him? I haven't really paid much attention to anyone else's training camp.

"Lots of tools, no toolbox"; "Has no clue what to do in the offensive zone"; "Doesn't seem to know where his teammates are when he has the puck"; basically a lot of the same things Ducks fans have said about him. Low hockey IQ despite good natural skills. Edited by norge25
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Seeing him play in the NYR preseason games, it looks like he's given more freedom by AV.  He's always at the front of the net waiting for the tap in, so that's a good sign.  And then when I see him get the puck to transition on the attack, it's the same old Etem.  Habits I guess.  I think he'll only get better given how their coaching is letting him play, unlike BB wanting him in a more grinding and puck hounding role.

 

Definitely unfair for NY fans and media to expect him as an immediate Hagelin replacement.  It was a NYR salary dump, and they get a work in progress with Etem.

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Etem didn't make a single mistake tonight... =(

 

:lol: Apparently he's being pushed aside because Vigneault prefers Tanner Glass..................................... Tanner Glass also didn't play.  :ph34r:

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