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Drake12

HHOF - SELANNE & KARIYA

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17 minutes ago, nieder said:

Yeah, I was still annoyed for a long time but it's been 14 years, and the franchise has been pretty successful since then. You can only hold a grudge for so long.

I've been pretty bitter myself but the the Ducks won a cup and Kariya didn't so for those who continue to hold a grudge, there's that. I'm sure Kariya has regrets but he did what he thought was best for him at the time. Although I'm sure Teemu has had a lot to do with it, the Ducks organization got over it a long time ago and if rumors are correct, they were in talks with signing Kariya a few years ago but after some tests, decided he didn't want to take the chance of another concussion. It has also been noted that the Ducks organization has offered him a place in the organization. I guess we'll see after the HHOF induction. Maybe that brings him back into the hockey world one way or another.

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https://www.nhl.com/ducks/news/kariya-selanne-elected-to-hockey-hall-of-fame/c-290166086

On the possibility of having his number retired in Anaheim
Teemu is very deserving of that, and to me the players who won a Stanley Cup there should be up in the rafters. That's what we all play the game for, is to win, and to have the opportunity to compete for a Cup. Although we came close, we didn't quite get there, and I think guys like Teemu, and Giguere and Niedermayer, and obviously Perry and Getzlaf, that helped bring a Cup to the team and have really solidified Anaheim as a powerhouse in the league deserve that honor much more than I do.

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59 minutes ago, HockeyIzCool said:

Well, it was a Punk thing to do, the way he left.  And it's not like he was the most warm and fuzzy guy towards the fans while he was here.  It's now said that it was because he's a shy kind of guy, but I heard stories from back then which say he was sometimes downright rude to some fans who approached him.  I guess for some, time heals all wounds, but it does not change the kind of guy he was off the ice.....with all due respect to Teemu and their friendship.

I can only speak from my own experience, but I was a scared 10 year old kid when I met Kariya in 2001. He couldn't have been more gentlemanly. 

Punk thing to do? I don't know ... it amazes me that Teemu always gets a free pass with this. Why didn't he want to come back to Anaheim until it was literally his only option?

It's good to hear Kariya is living a normal lifestyle ... but people need to remember he put his mental health and brain at risk to play for the Ducks. He returned from some pretty nasty injuries for the sake of our entertainment. 

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1 hour ago, nieder said:

Yeah, I was still annoyed for a long time but it's been 14 years, and the franchise has been pretty successful since then. You can only hold a grudge for so long.

Subjectively speaking, I'm still not Paul's biggest fan.  I don't actively think about it, but the way he left still rankles a bit when it comes up.

Objectively speaking, I didn't think his career was quite long enough to warrant HOF induction, but he's borderline.  Good for him that the league elected him, and it is great that he gets to go in with Teemu.  Although I'm still not supportive of his number being retired, this makes it more likely that it will be, and I won't raise a fuss.  It seems that a lot of Duck fans want it.

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55 minutes ago, ritz10hock said:

I can only speak from my own experience, but I was a scared 10 year old kid when I met Kariya in 2001. He couldn't have been more gentlemanly. 

Punk thing to do? I don't know ... it amazes me that Teemu always gets a free pass with this. Why didn't he want to come back to Anaheim until it was literally his only option?

It's good to hear Kariya is living a normal lifestyle ... but people need to remember he put his mental health and brain at risk to play for the Ducks. He returned from some pretty nasty injuries for the sake of our entertainment. 

Totally different scenarios.  The Ducks traded Selanne away.

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2 hours ago, ritz10hock said:

It amazes me that people can't get over this. 

How invested were you in the the 2002-2003 Anaheim Mighty Ducks?  Probably need to answer that first.

I'm happy for Selanne, and ambivalent on Kariya.  We'll see how he reacts to the Anaheim fan base moving forward...

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16 minutes ago, gorbachav5 said:

Totally different scenarios.  The Ducks traded Selanne away.

I'm aware. But they were both chasing rings. Why didn't Teemu want to come back to Anaheim?

12 minutes ago, Fowl said:

How invested were you in the the 2002-2003 Anaheim Mighty Ducks?  Probably need to answer that first.

I'm happy for Selanne, and ambivalent on Kariya.  We'll see how he reacts to the Anaheim fan base moving forward...

A curious question...

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Congrats to both. Always been a big Teemu fan.  Kariya on the other hand, maybe it's just me and my negative encounter. Fan fest 94-95 or 95-96 season....  you pay 15 or 20 bucks to get 2 players to sign an item you have. I was  about 14 yrs old, Kariya is sitting down. OMG I'm so happy now. Paid and waiting in line and he's signing, I get my turn, standing in front of him had over my hat for him to sign  An employee walks up to him tells him something and he hands back my hat, unsigned and leaves. I got Randy Ladoucer's autograph on the hat and a card of his I had, but I was hurt, ya  I cried....Now looking back, ya it could have been urgent, family matter, maybe he thought he signed it, idk.  I know.  It's been over 20 years let it go.    But still kinda sits wrong with me today..   

 

ok I'm done.  Congrats to both

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43 minutes ago, gorbachav5 said:

Totally different scenarios.  The Ducks traded Selanne away.

EXACTLY !!!!

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If you put up Giguere's jersey first, then you can put up Paul's. One player got to the Finals and stayed with the team until they got the Cup. He deserves to go up first. 

Congrats to Paul, that being said. Had his career not been shortened, he would have had quite a career, anyone can admit. PK and TS rivaled Lemieux and Jagr for a few years, it's too bad it didn't last. So long as JS gets his due, PK can too.

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4 hours ago, gorbachav5 said:

Subjectively speaking, I'm still not Paul's biggest fan.  I don't actively think about it, but the way he left still rankles a bit when it comes up.

Objectively speaking, I didn't think his career was quite long enough to warrant HOF induction, but he's borderline.  Good for him that the league elected him, and it is great that he gets to go in with Teemu.  Although I'm still not supportive of his number being retired, this makes it more likely that it will be, and I won't raise a fuss.  It seems that a lot of Duck fans want it.

I think two things happened. Selanne lobbied for Paul and the league in retrospect regrets that a player of Kariya's skill had his career shortened by concussions. This is the league saying, we acknowledge what you could have done and regret it never happened.

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7 hours ago, ritz10hock said:

A curious question...

From your posts I gathered you were a pre-teen when Kariya departed.  In real time, you probably didn't get the burn I did.   It was a serious disappointment, and nothing short of the fans feeling deceived by Kariya.  I had season tickets then, as I do now.  It was a bitter pill then, and the reason for my ambivalence.  I've met the man a few times when he was a Ducks player.  Don't have anything positive to report from my interactions.  Glad yours were better than mine.

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8 hours ago, gorbachav5 said:

Subjectively speaking, I'm still not Paul's biggest fan.  I don't actively think about it, but the way he left still rankles a bit when it comes up.

Objectively speaking, I didn't think his career was quite long enough to warrant HOF induction, but he's borderline.  Good for him that the league elected him, and it is great that he gets to go in with Teemu.  Although I'm still not supportive of his number being retired, this makes it more likely that it will be, and I won't raise a fuss.  It seems that a lot of Duck fans want it.

We are in general agreement.  I would rather see Giguere's number raised. PK9 is a jersey retirement I would probably miss.

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10 hours ago, gorbachav5 said:

Subjectively speaking, I'm still not Paul's biggest fan.  I don't actively think about it, but the way he left still rankles a bit when it comes up.

Objectively speaking, I didn't think his career was quite long enough to warrant HOF induction, but he's borderline.  Good for him that the league elected him, and it is great that he gets to go in with Teemu.  Although I'm still not supportive of his number being retired, this makes it more likely that it will be, and I won't raise a fuss.  It seems that a lot of Duck fans want it.

I have to start off by saying I wasn't actively following the Ducks (or hockey in general) when he left Anaheim. In fact I started following hockey in 2003-2004. From what I've read throughout the years the way he left wasn't pretty. Then again the man wanted to follow his dream and if he felt he had a better chance of doing that in Colorado there's very little you can do about it. He off course could have left in a 'nicer' way.

All history aside, I understand why they want to induct PK in the HHOF. He was the face of the franchise for years and a great player. If not for the injuries he would have had a more impressive career no doubt. As for his number being retired, IMO it has to happen.

Some time ago (might have been a few years) there was this discussion going on about Jiggy. Should we retire #35 yes or no? Some said yes, others said no. What came up with the naysayers everytime was: "if we would have won The Cup in 2003 then yes." And Paul Kariya is in that same boat. If we had won in 2003 his number/their numbers would have already been retired. Always that one game. It's very unfortunate we lost that one but it doesn't negate all the great things these guys have achieved here.

Both these guys have had incredible careers with (The Mighty) Ducks. Too bad for PK he never got the icing on the cake but we can't judge two of the greatest players in Ducks history by one game. They deserve to have their number up there along with #8 and I think it's a great honor for Paul Kariya to be inducted into the HHOF along with Teemu.

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When it comes to retiring numbers, my general philosophy is that less is more.  Basically, only Hall of Fame players or players who were synonymous with the franchise should have their numbers retired.  Kariya meets the first criteria, although the way he departed and has stayed away are still factors.  I expect that the HOF induction will overcome the latter, though, and the Ducks will look to retire his jersey soon.

Giguere just doesn't quite make it for me.  He was a great Duck, but he wasn't a historically significant hockey player.  Had he played his entire career with the Ducks, or close to it, then maybe you consider retiring the number.

I tend to prefer small Hall of Fames and few numbers retired.  I think those things should mean a lot, and they get diluted when you let too many into the club.,

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8 hours ago, Fowl said:

From your posts I gathered you were a pre-teen when Kariya departed.  In real time, you probably didn't get the burn I did.   It was a serious disappointment, and nothing short of the fans feeling deceived by Kariya.  I had season tickets then, as I do now.  It was a bitter pill then, and the reason for my ambivalence.  I've met the man a few times when he was a Ducks player.  Don't have anything positive to report from my interactions.  Glad yours were better than mine.

Pretty close estimation there, but unless you're strictly talking strictly a financial investment in the 02-03 Ducks I don't see why that matters. Just find it funny that fans criticize a player for bettering his career position yet would do the exact same thing in their own life. I mean, play with Joe Sakic and Peter Forsberg on a team built to win a Cup? It didn't work out for him. Had Brian Burke, Scott Niedermayer and Chris Pronger arrived a few years before they did I doubt Kariya would've went anywhere. 

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1 hour ago, gorbachav5 said:

When it comes to retiring numbers, my general philosophy is that less is more.  Basically, only Hall of Fame players or players who were synonymous with the franchise should have their numbers retired.  Kariya meets the first criteria, although the way he departed and has stayed away are still factors.  I expect that the HOF induction will overcome the latter, though, and the Ducks will look to retire his jersey soon.

Giguere just doesn't quite make it for me.  He was a great Duck, but he wasn't a historically significant hockey player.  Had he played his entire career with the Ducks, or close to it, then maybe you consider retiring the number.

I tend to prefer small Hall of Fames and few numbers retired.  I think those things should mean a lot, and they get diluted when you let too many into the club.,

I totally agree but for me Giguere is up there. He was our starter for a long time and he was really good, with his trade mark butterfly style. He was part of that cinderella run in 03 and picked up the Conn Smythe along the way only to win The Cup 4 years later. And although that was more Teemu, he was part of one of the most beautiful moments in Ducks/hockey (and maybe sports) history when he was with the avs.

So for me it's a yes but I understand where you're coming from. I guess it's just a matter of interpretation

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17 hours ago, Fowl said:

How invested were you in the the 2002-2003 Anaheim Mighty Ducks?  Probably need to answer that first.

I'm happy for Selanne, and ambivalent on Kariya.  We'll see how he reacts to the Anaheim fan base moving forward...

"Ambivalent" seems to be your new favorite word around the boards these days!

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19 hours ago, nieder said:

Yeah, I was still annoyed for a long time but it's been 14 years, and the franchise has been pretty successful since then. You can only hold a grudge for so long.

Nah, I can hold a grudge forever.  He does belong in the HHOF, but I'd rather not see the #9 jersey in the rafters of the Honda center

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40 minutes ago, AyeEye said:

Nah, I can hold a grudge forever.  He does belong in the HHOF, but I'd rather not see the #9 jersey in the rafters of the Honda center

For those that share this view, fortunately for you Kariya doesn't think he should have his number retired either. 

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1 hour ago, yeaitsme said:

"Ambivalent" seems to be your new favorite word around the boards these days!

It is the perfect fit.  These days would be the last two and within this topic.  

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2 hours ago, ritz10hock said:

Pretty close estimation there, but unless you're strictly talking strictly a financial investment in the 02-03 Ducks I don't see why that matters. Just find it funny that fans criticize a player for bettering his career position yet would do the exact same thing in their own life. I mean, play with Joe Sakic and Peter Forsberg on a team built to win a Cup? It didn't work out for him. Had Brian Burke, Scott Niedermayer and Chris Pronger arrived a few years before they did I doubt Kariya would've went anywhere. 

Financial investment was one component, as well as attendance at every game that season.  I was more serious about the fan thing then than I am now.  Used to attend some of the special functions, etc.   Comes down to not much liking the guy saying one thing and doing another.  Don't care if they raise his number or not....I'll always view him unfavorably.  The exact description of which is not appropriate for this board.

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4 hours ago, gorbachav5 said:

When it comes to retiring numbers, my general philosophy is that less is more.  Basically, only Hall of Fame players or players who were synonymous with the franchise should have their numbers retired.  Kariya meets the first criteria, although the way he departed and has stayed away are still factors.  I expect that the HOF induction will overcome the latter, though, and the Ducks will look to retire his jersey soon.

Giguere just doesn't quite make it for me.  He was a great Duck, but he wasn't a historically significant hockey player.  Had he played his entire career with the Ducks, or close to it, then maybe you consider retiring the number.

I tend to prefer small Hall of Fames and few numbers retired.  I think those things should mean a lot, and they get diluted when you let too many into the club.,

If JS doesn't get retired for his contributions to the franchise, then neither does PK. JS did more.

 

How many Conn Smythes did PK get?

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59 minutes ago, Thom-74 said:

If JS doesn't get retired for his contributions to the franchise, then neither does PK. JS did more.

 

How many Conn Smythes did PK get?

Not disputing Giguere's accomplishment, but Kariya was one of the top five players in the league from 1996-2001. He was a big part of putting this franchise on the map. 

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Pretty clear there are many variations and qualifications that fans would put on how has a number retired. Well it is up to Samuelli to decide or delegate to others to decide, so the rest of it is mere fodder.

Do players who were around at the beginning of a franchise get more cred than once a franchise is 50 years old, etc. Does the player who is always smiling v. a grump and does not stop to shake everyone's hands get a few extra votes? Does the player who buries a lot of goals but runs over puppies lose votes? Does a player who never is on a CUP winning team get taken down a notch even though he sets records? There is not black line test or standard. That is why you do what you do when you buy your jersey, or otherwise. You are voting with your $$$. Nothing says when you look up in the rafters (after all) that you see a number that you do not agree with, does it spoil the night or dirty the accolades of the other numbers? Eh.........I prefer to see banners for TEAM accomplishments. Individual........that is what the hockey hof is for is it not? I am "ambivalent" to retiring numbers for what is a team sport (best example of a team sport in my eyes). So put what you want in the rafters......but save some room for CUP banners if you can.

Does Mike Trout have his number retired if he never wins squat with the Angels, has average post seasons when the opp is present and bolts for a new club when he wants to win and make more money? Yeah he won some MVPs.....but he won some MVPs,,,,,why layer on the accolades? Or might it depend upon if he hired the right PR firm to handle what is said about him in the media, or signed a kids glove at spring training or didn't?

 

 

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1 hour ago, Thom-74 said:

If JS doesn't get retired for his contributions to the franchise, then neither does PK. JS did more.

 

How many Conn Smythes did PK get?

I mean, I can not like the guy for how he left, but Kariya was EVERYTHING to the franchise until Selanne showed up (and everything afterwards until his departure).  And he was more important than Giguere during that 02-03 season, even if Giguere was the guy who had a better playoffs.  

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16 minutes ago, sclives said:

Pretty clear there are many variations and qualifications that fans would put on how has a number retired. Well it is up to Samuelli to decide or delegate to others to decide, so the rest of it is mere fodder.

Do players who were around at the beginning of a franchise get more cred than once a franchise is 50 years old, etc. Does the player who is always smiling v. a grump and does not stop to shake everyone's hands get a few extra votes? Does the player who buries a lot of goals but runs over puppies lose votes? Does a player who never is on a CUP winning team get taken down a notch even though he sets records? There is not black line test or standard. That is why you do what you do when you buy your jersey, or otherwise. You are voting with your $$$. Nothing says when you look up in the rafters (after all) that you see a number that you do not agree with, does it spoil the night or dirty the accolades of the other numbers? Eh.........I prefer to see banners for TEAM accomplishments. Individual........that is what the hockey hof is for is it not? I am "ambivalent" to retiring numbers for what is a team sport (best example of a team sport in my eyes). So put what you want in the rafters......but save some room for CUP banners if you can.

Does Mike Trout have his number retired if he never wins squat with the Angels, has average post seasons when the opp is present and bolts for a new club when he wants to win and make more money? Yeah he won some MVPs.....but he won some MVPs,,,,,why layer on the accolades? Or might it depend upon if he hired the right PR firm to handle what is said about him in the media, or signed a kids glove at spring training or didn't?

 

 

Be careful using that ambivalent word around here!  ???

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