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21 minutes ago, dtsdlaw said:

The current state of the franchise doesn't have any bearing on what it would cost to get Eichel, which is what I have been posting about above. I'm just trying to give my impression of what it will realistically take to get the deal done. Buffalo isn't going to lower or raise their price depending on how close the suitors are to being competitive (though they might based on which conference/division they play in). Feel free to pick apart my logic on the cost of acquiring Eichel if you think that part is wrong, but I'm already on record as being reluctant to trade for Eichel due to his injury history, so I don't think you'll get much argument from me. Though I would consider a deal that was for a bit less than what I think the price will be. That said, I'd rather we trade for Reinhart, who I am really high on. I'd even consider dangling the #3 pick (if Beniers is gone by then) or a conditional 1st in the 2022 draft for Reinhart. I have serious concerns about entering next season with our current center depth, and I think it could be disastrous for the long-term health of the franchise if we don't add a top-6 C this summer to help Zegras develop. Doing nothing at the center position this summer simply because there might be ~17% chance the ping pong balls can deliver Shane Wright at the next draft is an even worse strategy than selling the farm for Eichel. 

but i think the current state of the league does have bearing.  with the covid-adjusted income and cap what it is, and the offer sheet stuff not being updated in relation to the league state.... i mean, i love that you brought that up, because you know that Buff definitely used that as a starting point in their negotiations, but i think Eichel's injury and the state of the league immediately discounts that price (just not sure how much).

separately, i think you (and some others in this thread way, WAY over-value Comtois.  both in my personal opinion AND in any reasonable opinion of either GM in this prospective trade (Buff or Anaheim).  no-one, and i mean absolutely no-one, is going to base a trade value on performance during the covid season.  more, no-one is going to base MaxC's performance relative to the other forwards on our team this season... maybe you could with some other forwards on other teams, but the Ducks' metrics are so awful and screwy this past season (and maybe even the season before), trade partners aren't going to do anything but use it as negative trade fodder for all our forwards that have accumulated a couple of seasons of NHL stats.  they'd be silly not to.

point being, Zegras and Drys are shiny new things that supernova'd inside and outside of NHL competition in the past year - they have solid value throughout the league, and aside from some goalie gold we have in hand, they're our sole major trade pieces.  at the same time, we'd be insane to trade them right now.  the timing is simply all wrong, unless the trainers have seen something off the game-ice that makes this the perfect time to trade them for maximum return.  i don't see that being the case, but that's the only excuse that could work.

if we want Eichel, i think the trade is the #3 pick and Gibson, and maybe one of Lundestrom, TT, or MaxC (though if we traded MaxC, I'd force them to take on one of the albatross contracts that everyone on the board complains about).  we'd be in horrible shape for a season F-wise if Eichel's injury became an ongoing issue, but we'd be able to recover, and hopefully we'd get a new top-league goalie out of our development program to replace Gibby just as all our prospects really start to turn the NHL crank for realsies.  pretty much everything else i've seen suggested as trade bait is just too expensive and leaves us way, way too imbalanced going forward, even with a healthy Eichel.  our only hope at that point would be that SS magically turned into GetzJr or something similar, and that the Shatt gets offloaded to Seattle.

i guess one additional option would be if we did the Getz sign for low $$ and trade to Buff dance... but i think that sort of swap would make more sense in a package with a team that has a real chance to make it to the cup next year, even after shipping us an Eichel-like forward.  Buff won't be that.  hell, they'd be sort of crazy to trade Eichel to a team like us at this point anyway.  better for them to trade for a bunch of solid vets from a team that makes it far into the post season (or wins the cup) and wants to shed overhang before a rebuild for a second run next season - a team that is going to find it difficult to protect their team in the ED.

one interesting thing to consider - if Eichel wants to be on a winning team, so doesn't want to stay in Buff or come here (because we're in a rebuild), Buff could agree not to trade him to us in exchange for Eichel to relax his NMC to allow for a trade to Seattle.  Seattle will have a ton of decent players and probably pics ready to trade after the ED, and Seattle will probably be set up for decent success going forward.  Buff could get a solid return from them, and it'd be a return that they'd be willing to give up (unlike us - the Ducks really can't spare what we'd need to give up to get Eichel and solve the issues Buff needs solved).

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1 hour ago, Fisix said:

but i think the current state of the league does have bearing.  with the covid-adjusted income and cap what it is, and the offer sheet stuff not being updated in relation to the league state.... i mean, i love that you brought that up, because you know that Buff definitely used that as a starting point in their negotiations, but i think Eichel's injury and the state of the league immediately discounts that price (just not sure how much).

separately, i think you (and some others in this thread way, WAY over-value Comtois.  both in my personal opinion AND in any reasonable opinion of either GM in this prospective trade (Buff or Anaheim).  no-one, and i mean absolutely no-one, is going to base a trade value on performance during the covid season.  more, no-one is going to base MaxC's performance relative to the other forwards on our team this season... maybe you could with some other forwards on other teams, but the Ducks' metrics are so awful and screwy this past season (and maybe even the season before), trade partners aren't going to do anything but use it as negative trade fodder for all our forwards that have accumulated a couple of seasons of NHL stats.  they'd be silly not to.

point being, Zegras and Drys are shiny new things that supernova'd inside and outside of NHL competition in the past year - they have solid value throughout the league, and aside from some goalie gold we have in hand, they're our sole major trade pieces.  at the same time, we'd be insane to trade them right now.  the timing is simply all wrong, unless the trainers have seen something off the game-ice that makes this the perfect time to trade them for maximum return.  i don't see that being the case, but that's the only excuse that could work.

if we want Eichel, i think the trade is the #3 pick and Gibson, and maybe one of Lundestrom, TT, or MaxC (though if we traded MaxC, I'd force them to take on one of the albatross contracts that everyone on the board complains about).  we'd be in horrible shape for a season F-wise if Eichel's injury became an ongoing issue, but we'd be able to recover, and hopefully we'd get a new top-league goalie out of our development program to replace Gibby just as all our prospects really start to turn the NHL crank for realsies.  pretty much everything else i've seen suggested as trade bait is just too expensive and leaves us way, way too imbalanced going forward, even with a healthy Eichel.  our only hope at that point would be that SS magically turned into GetzJr or something similar, and that the Shatt gets offloaded to Seattle.

i guess one additional option would be if we did the Getz sign for low $$ and trade to Buff dance... but i think that sort of swap would make more sense in a package with a team that has a real chance to make it to the cup next year, even after shipping us an Eichel-like forward.  Buff won't be that.  hell, they'd be sort of crazy to trade Eichel to a team like us at this point anyway.  better for them to trade for a bunch of solid vets from a team that makes it far into the post season (or wins the cup) and wants to shed overhang before a rebuild for a second run next season - a team that is going to find it difficult to protect their team in the ED.

one interesting thing to consider - if Eichel wants to be on a winning team, so doesn't want to stay in Buff or come here (because we're in a rebuild), Buff could agree not to trade him to us in exchange for Eichel to relax his NMC to allow for a trade to Seattle.  Seattle will have a ton of decent players and probably pics ready to trade after the ED, and Seattle will probably be set up for decent success going forward.  Buff could get a solid return from them, and it'd be a return that they'd be willing to give up (unlike us - the Ducks really can't spare what we'd need to give up to get Eichel and solve the issues Buff needs solved).

I actually agree with Gibson being part of the trade. I’ve said in the past, Gibson is in his prime now. In 2-4 years once the Ducks are coming out of a rebuild, will he still be in his prime if not mentally drained from being hammered every night. We have Dostal in the pipe line and Stolarz right now. If we are going to be in another year or two of down turn why not play with a ‘B’ goalie and a solid prospect to back him up. If we got Eichel there is a good chance he misses a big part of if not all of next season with neck surgery? We will be at the bottom of the pack next season regardless. Then shipping Gibby helps in draft position too. If we didn’t have Gibson this season, we would have the #1 more likely. Buffalo needs a goalie and shipping him there may save us from having to include the number of players we are all unwilling to let go of. No sense in wasting Gibsons prime years with us. They can be wasted in Buffalo (sorry Gibby). But it’s the truth.

Edited by ike8228

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I really don’t think Comtois is over-valued, he scored around a 24 goal, 50 point pace. That’s pretty damn good. I don’t understand this mindset that nothing anyone did this season matters. A lot of guys played a lot of games in a short amount of time. Is what McDavid any less impressive, it doesn’t matter because COVID? 
Comtois isn’t going to play good defense, probably ever, but I thought there was a noticeable improvement as the season went on. He was trying and that’s what matters, especially if you can pot 20-30 goals a year. 
In a 
3rd Overall

Comtois 

Henrique 

trade if you’re Buffalo you’re getting a 22 year old who just had a great season and a great stint on Team Canada. 
A Center in Rico who on a weak Buffalo team could be your first or second line center. Score you 20 goals. If Anaheim retains salary, you’re paying pennies on the dollar. 
A 3rd overall pick In a draft that by all accounts Buffalo values highly.

im not saying that’s Eichel value, but you’re getting good pieces for a broken, very publicly unhappy Eichel. They HAVE to move Eichel before he can dictate where he goes and what they get. 

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I wouldn’t hate trading Gibson. I still would rather hold onto him until we see Dostal in the NHL. 
How crazy would it be if they center an Eichel trade around Gibson, keep the 3rd overall, draft Wallstedt. 

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14 minutes ago, Sexlaf15 said:

I really don’t think Comtois is over-valued, he scored around a 24 goal, 50 point pace. That’s pretty damn good. I don’t understand this mindset that nothing anyone did this season matters. A lot of guys played a lot of games in a short amount of time. Is what McDavid any less impressive, it doesn’t matter because COVID? 

he's overvalued in what dtslaw posted.  he HAS value, he's just not that expensive.  and, if you read more closely, what i said is that his stats on our current team can't be taken as reliable. our team's metrics were just all f'd up.  teams that made it into the playoffs... i think you can take their player stats as more realistic of the player's capability, in the context of what matters to a GM.

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The injury to Eichel definitely hurts his value as well as his public displeasure with the organization. It's now known he wants out. 

The Pronger deal also included 1st round picks that weren't this high in the draft. You can't say a 20s pick is the same as a top 3. If we give them our 2 first rounders we'd be crazy. 

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Just now, Fisix said:

he's overvalued in what dtslaw posted.  he HAS value, he's just not that expensive.  and, if you read more closely, what i said is that his stats on our current team can't be taken as reliable. our team's metrics were just all f'd up.  teams that made it into the playoffs... i think you can take their player stats as more realistic of the player's capability, in the context of what matters to a GM.

I think GMs look at how devoid of goal scoring Anaheim and see what Comtois did and be impressed. 

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1 minute ago, Fisix said:

he's overvalued in what dtslaw posted.  he HAS value, he's just not that expensive.  and, if you read more closely, what i said is that his stats on our current team can't be taken as reliable. our team's metrics were just all f'd up.  teams that made it into the playoffs... i think you can take their player stats as more realistic of the player's capability, in the context of what matters to a GM.

But he also went to the worlds and did fine there as well. Sure he's no star but I think he's got more to give in a full season. 

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1 hour ago, Fisix said:

he's overvalued in what dtslaw posted.  he HAS value, he's just not that expensive.  and, if you read more closely, what i said is that his stats on our current team can't be taken as reliable. our team's metrics were just all f'd up.  teams that made it into the playoffs... i think you can take their player stats as more realistic of the player's capability, in the context of what matters to a GM.

You really don’t think Comtois will get $3M+ on his next contract from the Ducks? Rakell got 6 yrs at $3.8M/season after scoring 20G in 72 games. MC just scored 16G in 55 games on our crappy team, which is a slightly better scoring pace than Rakell had on a good team. I’m frankly already worried he’ll want close to $4M/season from the Ducks, especially after his showing at the world championships. And I’d be really surprised if he signed for less than $4M/season if he were traded. Buffalo’s GM would be under incredible pressure to sign him because it would be a PR nightmare for Buffalo if a cornerstone piece of the Eichel trade held out. I think he could easily push for a 3-year deal at $3M-$4M-$5M, which could put Buffalo in a tough spot with his qualifying offer. That may be a headache they don’t want to deal with.

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39 minutes ago, dtsdlaw said:

You really don’t think Comtois will get $3M+ on his next contract from the Ducks? Rakell got 6 yrs at $3.8M/season after scoring 20G in 72 games. MC just scored 16G in 55 games on our crappy team, which is a slightly better scoring pace than Rakell had on a good team. I’m frankly already worried he’ll want close to $4M/season from the Ducks, especially after his showing at the world championships. And I’d be really surprised if he signed for less than $4M/season if he were traded. Buffalo’s GM would be under incredible pressure to sign him because it would be a PR nightmare for Buffalo if a cornerstone piece of the Eichel trade held out. I think he could easily push for a 3-year deal at $3M-$4M-$5M, which could put Buffalo in a tough spot with his qualifying offer. That may be a headache they don’t want to deal with.

I wouldn’t be surprised if it was closer to 5. Based i. The ratio you described and the inflation of contracts, even in flat cap, he will get more than RR. RR contract today would be 4.5. MC gets 5.

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22 hours ago, dtsdlaw said:

When we got Pronger, we sent Edmonton: Lupul (former #7OA) + Smid (former #9OA) + 1st in 2007 (#30) + 1st in 2008 (#22) + 2nd in 2008 (#53). So basically four 1st rounders and a second rounder, which is essentially the same as what I suggested. Pronger was also 32-years-old. Eichel turns 25 in October.

Maybe it's a bit too much, but you're going to have to give to get, especially for a top-10 forward in the league. I think its also fair to look at the offer sheet compensation rules as background on what it might take for a deal that is entirely futures. If you were to get an RFA on an offer sheet for $10M, the compensation is two 1st rounders, a second rounder, and a 3rd rounder. I think that's the starting point for any Eichel deal that is based entirely on futures, and just giving up that package of picks doesn't get a deal done because nearly ever other team in the league has those assets to trade. It's gotta be more than the offer sheet compensation. 

Just leave this here because it is nerdy and interesting.

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/edmonton-oilers-trade-tree-chris-pronger-traded-anaheim-ducks/

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21 hours ago, gorbachav5 said:

When the Ducks traded for Pronger, they had:

  • Come off of a run to the conference finals
  • A HoF defenseman in his prime
  • A HoF RW who had just put up a 90-point season.
  • Two recent 1st round picks ready to contribute on the second line

These Ducks are nowhere near those Ducks.  Yes, the age part of it makes a difference, but Eichel's injury also mitigates that advantage somewhat.  If the Ducks can find a way to pick up two HoF players this summer, then sure, I'm down for trading all those assets.

AND a goalie who had won the Conn Smythe three seasons previous.

STACKED

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30 minutes ago, gotchabari said:

Thanks, I had forgotten that the 2008 1st was conditional on making the SCF. I can't remember what that pick would have been if they didn't make the Cup Finals. Do you know? Was it just a lower pick, or was there no pick at all if they missed the Finals?

Edit: And with that additional piece of info, I wonder if everyone would still throw GMBM into an active volcano if the price was just the #3 + #34 + Lundestrom (#23 OA) + Perreault (#27 OA) (with the 2022/2023 1st removed from the offer). I'd do that trade if the team docs could give some assurances we'd get a healthy Eichel.

Edited by dtsdlaw

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21 hours ago, dtsdlaw said:

The current state of the franchise doesn't have any bearing on what it would cost to get Eichel, which is what I have been posting about above. I'm just trying to give my impression of what it will realistically take to get the deal done. Buffalo isn't going to lower or raise their price depending on how close the suitors are to being competitive (though they might based on which conference/division they play in). Feel free to pick apart my logic on the cost of acquiring Eichel if you think that part is wrong, but I'm already on record as being reluctant to trade for Eichel due to his injury history, so I don't think you'll get much argument from me. Though I would consider a deal that was for a bit less than what I think the price will be. That said, I'd rather we trade for Reinhart, who I am really high on. I'd even consider dangling the #3 pick (if Beniers is gone by then) or a conditional 1st in the 2022 draft for Reinhart. I have serious concerns about entering next season with our current center depth, and I think it could be disastrous for the long-term health of the franchise if we don't add a top-6 C this summer to help Zegras develop. Doing nothing at the center position this summer simply because there might be ~17% chance the ping pong balls can deliver Shane Wright at the next draft is an even worse strategy than selling the farm for Eichel. 

I think going after Reinhart is the better play, but can BUF afford to deal Reinhart when they are close to 100% going to move Eichel?

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18 minutes ago, tommer-1 said:

I think going after Reinhart is the better play, but can BUF afford to deal Reinhart when they are close to 100% going to move Eichel?

They're supposedly going to raze that team to the ground by moving out Eichel, Reinhart, and Ristolainen. A full scorched earth rebuild.

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Just now, dtsdlaw said:

They're supposedly going to raze that team to the ground by moving out Eichel, Reinhart, and Ristolainen. A full scorched earth rebuild.

Yikes. Good luck to Dylan Cozens!

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1 minute ago, dtsdlaw said:

They're supposedly going to raze that team to the ground by moving out Eichel, Reinhart, and Ristolainen. A full scorched earth rebuild.

If this is their plan, then I would think they will almost certainly draft Beniers #1 and then draft one of the kid D at #3 or #2 if they make a deal with ANA or SEA.

They should make a deal with both ANA and SEA and draft 1-2-3! Power, Beniers, Wallstedt!  Done!

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1 minute ago, tommer-1 said:

If this is their plan, then I would think they will almost certainly draft Beniers #1 and then draft one of the kid D at #3 or #2 if they make a deal with ANA or SEA.

They should make a deal with both ANA and SEA and draft 1-2-3! Power, Beniers, Wallstedt!  Done!

Interesting idea. You can't help but wonder if Seattle might be in on Eichel too. They may have a TON of assets to use after the expansion draft.

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20 minutes ago, dtsdlaw said:

Interesting idea. You can't help but wonder if Seattle might be in on Eichel too. They may have a TON of assets to use after the expansion draft.

 

Eichel and BUF's 2nd rounder to SEA for their #2 overall, their 3rd rounder, and two of their EX Draft selections - 2 NHLers.

Reinhart and BUF's 2nd rounder (from BOS) to ANA for their #3 overall and Henrique and Steel (for C depth).

 

#1 BUF - Owen Power, D

#2 BUF (from SEA) - Matthew Beniers, C

#3 BUF (from ANA) - Jesper Wallstedt, G

 

Jack Eichel, face of the Kraken franchise.

 

That would be a BOSS move by SEA and BUF, and a good rebuilding move by ANA. Adams keeps his job with those moves!

Edited by tommer-1
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22 minutes ago, tommer-1 said:

 

Eichel and BUF's 2nd rounder to SEA for their #2 overall, their 3rd rounder, and two of their EX Draft selections - 2 NHLers.

Reinhart and BUF's 2nd rounder (from BOS) to ANA for their #3 overall and Henrique and Steel (for C depth).

 

#1 BUF - Owen Power, D

#2 BUF (from SEA) - Matthew Beniers, C

#3 BUF (from ANA) - Jesper Wallstedt, G

 

Jack Eichel, face of the Kraken franchise.

 

That would be a BOSS move by SEA and BUF, and a good rebuilding move by ANA. Adams keeps his job with those moves!

That would be crazy. Seems like a win win win. 
 

Or Ana trades for Eichel and Reinhart….and Risto lol who knows. Each team just dumps everything. Anaheim Sabers and Buffalo Ducks 

Edited by ike8228
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43 minutes ago, Sexlaf15 said:

I’m surprised how many here are high in Reinhart. I’m pretty down on him. 

Curious, why? He had 10 PP goals last season (only one fewer than our whole team) and was 11th in the league in goals despite playing on the worst team in the NHL. He also moved to center after Eichel went out and played pretty well there by most accounts. 

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1 hour ago, dtsdlaw said:

Thanks, I had forgotten that the 2008 1st was conditional on making the SCF. I can't remember what that pick would have been if they didn't make the Cup Finals. Do you know? Was it just a lower pick, or was there no pick at all if they missed the Finals?

Edit: And with that additional piece of info, I wonder if everyone would still throw GMBM into an active volcano if the price was just the #3 + #34 + Lundestrom (#23 OA) + Perreault (#27 OA) (with the 2022/2023 1st removed from the offer). I'd do that trade if the team docs could give some assurances we'd get a healthy Eichel.

Yes, but I would throw him into a less active volcano. 

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57 minutes ago, Sexlaf15 said:

I’m surprised how many here are high in Reinhart. I’m pretty down on him. 

He's a 25-year-old C, and has had five 20-goal seasons, and three 50-point seasons, in the NHL.  In Buffalo.

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7 minutes ago, gorbachav5 said:

I'm not down on Reinhart, but he did have an unsustainably high shooting percentage last season.  That said, he was still a high possession player (albeit one with super sheltered zone starts) and his PDO indicated he could be due for some better scoring luck.  Consider me in the boat that would rather put a package together for Reinhart than Eichel.

Edit: The one thing that would give me pause is that he seems like a complete non-entity on defense.  It would be nice if one of our top two centers could also bring something to the defensive side of the puck, and maybe Zegras will develop in that area, but with Reinhart-Zegras down the middle, first one to five wins.  Actually, that sounds nice.  Sign me up.

Two words. Lunde. Strom.

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20 hours ago, Sexlaf15 said:

Rumor has it Matthew Tkachuk wants out of Calgary. 
 

Eichel - Tkachuk first line? 👀

man, i feel like this type of thing is waaay too common these days...star players actively saying they want out of whatever city. I hardly remember that happening much until like this year lol has it been THIS common all the time and i haven't noticed? or is this pretty new lately?

I mean, I know it's happened before...but like... Laine, Eichel, Dubois, Tkachuk...am I missing anyone else from this year? lol I'm sure I am!

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1 hour ago, dtsdlaw said:

Curious, why? He had 10 PP goals last season (only one fewer than our whole team) and was 11th in the league in goals despite playing on the worst team in the NHL. He also moved to center after Eichel went out and played pretty well there by most accounts. 

This last season just feels unsustainable. I think he’s solid and I’m not going to say no for the right price, I just worry the price is too high for, what I feel is, a player in the realm of Rakell, Silfverberg, Henrique. When your dangling the shiniest toy in Eichel in front of me, I’m gonna have a hard time wanting anything else, childish I know. This team needs a true game breaking talent. Zegras could get there, but adding Eichel is GENUINE game breaking talent that we haven’t had since Prime Getzlaf (and 2017 Playoffs Getzlaf) and Perry. The idea of Eichel/Zegras down the middle to me is ideal, it would help this team immensely. I have a hard time convincing myself that Reinhart is much better than Rakell or Henrique. 

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