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2 hours ago, perry_mvp said:

The Sabres are showing their fans how inept they are at handling the situation right now. If the Sabres are willing to give up Reinhart for a 1st round pick and an AHL player from the Cats then they are showing other GM's that it's only going to take a little more to get Eichel. The longer this goes on, the worse the offers will get even if there are more especially if there is a potential deal with a playoff team. A playoff team wants him before training camp. A team like Anaheim realistically needs him ready for the 2022-2023 season. The Sabres are acting like they are expecting the return from an offer sheet.

I see it the other way - if I'm a fan, I see my organization being held in a tough spot by a player.  Yes, some of it is on them with the medical decision making, but I don't think it's as cut and dried as people want to make it when it comes to allowing Eichel to undergo a procedure that is unprecedented for a hockey player.  I thought the Reinhart trade was fine - next year's first round is loaded and they got a goalie prospect, which they desperately need.  The Ristolainen trade was straight robbery of the Flyers.  And now the organization is refusing to give up its franchise player for 50 cents on the dollar. To me, that's my team trying to do the absolute best it can while in a tough spot, even if their presence there is partially of their own doing.

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19 minutes ago, Gorbachav55 said:

These are all good points in that Buffalo needs to be concerned with this stuff, but I don't think it changes much.  Whether they trade Eichel or not, they still have to reach the salary floor, so they're still going to have to pick up more contracts.  They can start that process now before he's traded if they want, since they'll have to cover $17.3 million in space if he's traded.  They're not going to get that back in any trade for Eichel.  You're right that the Ducks make the most sense there because of Kesler's contract, but even with Kesler included in a deal, the Ducks will need to dump someone like Henrique or Silf to make a dent in Buffalo's salary floor deficit.  And those guys both have term, which means Buffalo is going to want an additional asset to take them from the Ducks.  

It's tricky, for sure, but I think Buffalo would be wise to pick up a contract or two now to get them to the floor so they can go into the season with Eichel if they want to hold firm to that threat.  As I've continue to say, though, it's obviously much better for Buffalo to get this done sooner rather than later.  I just don't think it's a complete bluff that they are willing to hold onto Eichel until the beginning of the season.

If they go longer term with Dahlin, he could be in the $7.5-$8M range, just behind what Heiskanen and Chabot got. Mittelstadt also had 22 points in 41 games last season, so he's due a raise as well. I figure they probably need about $8M to come back in an Eichel trade that will stay on their cap through the whole season so that they can play around with flipping other contracts and retaining salary for picks and prospects. Kesler ($6.875) + Lundestrom (875K) is $7.75M. It's right there. An Kesler hardly costs them anything due to insurance. It just makes sense for both teams IMO.

I think they can hold out until early September to see if the Rangers or Flames or VGK will kick in more, but if none of those teams come through then they'll still have to make that deal before the season starts. Anaheim and Columbus are the front runners once we hit October 1st because I don't think the others can wait that long.

Edited by dtsdlaw

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47 minutes ago, Gorbachav55 said:

I see it the other way - if I'm a fan, I see my organization being held in a tough spot by a player.  Yes, some of it is on them with the medical decision making, but I don't think it's as cut and dried as people want to make it when it comes to allowing Eichel to undergo a procedure that is unprecedented for a hockey player.  I thought the Reinhart trade was fine - next year's first round is loaded and they got a goalie prospect, which they desperately need.  The Ristolainen trade was straight robbery of the Flyers.  And now the organization is refusing to give up its franchise player for 50 cents on the dollar. To me, that's my team trying to do the absolute best it can while in a tough spot, even if their presence there is partially of their own doing.

It's not unprecedented for a hockey player to have this procedure just unprecedented for an NHL player. That doesn't mean that there is something inherently wrong with it. Also, I believe the Buffalo fans are keen enough to actually look into what Eichel want's to undergo as opposed to what the Sabres management wants. Unless Eichel expressed publicly or privately to management before his injury a desire to be traded then I don't see how he's putting the team in a tight spot. If he's using his injury as way out of Buffalo by refusing to get the ACDF surgery but ends up getting it with the new team then yes I can agree with you that he held the Sabres in a tight spot. I also understand the Sabres want to get the best return for him. We as fans really don't know what official offers have been made for Eichel but if it's ever revealed that a much better offer could have been made and the Sabres said no then that would ignite a revolt with the fans. I've seen comments from Buffalo fans. They don't want to trade Eichel nor do they want a bad return for him if he is. Their fans are going to be disappointed one way or another.

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17 hours ago, perry_mvp said:

It's not unprecedented for a hockey player to have this procedure just unprecedented for an NHL player. That doesn't mean that there is something inherently wrong with it. Also, I believe the Buffalo fans are keen enough to actually look into what Eichel want's to undergo as opposed to what the Sabres management wants. Unless Eichel expressed publicly or privately to management before his injury a desire to be traded then I don't see how he's putting the team in a tight spot. If he's using his injury as way out of Buffalo by refusing to get the ACDF surgery but ends up getting it with the new team then yes I can agree with you that he held the Sabres in a tight spot. I also understand the Sabres want to get the best return for him. We as fans really don't know what official offers have been made for Eichel but if it's ever revealed that a much better offer could have been made and the Sabres said no then that would ignite a revolt with the fans. I've seen comments from Buffalo fans. They don't want to trade Eichel nor do they want a bad return for him if he is. Their fans are going to be disappointed one way or another.

I'm not saying there's something inherently wrong with it; I am saying there is something inherently risky about it, and people who are treating the Sabres like they're stuck in 19th century medical practices are going a bit too far.  They're not asking him to get leeched or telling him it's the vapors.  This is a spinal injury and he wants spinal surgery.  That's really serious.  From what I've read, I come down on Eichel's side and think Buffalo is making the wrong call, but I don't think it's an unreasonable position for them to take.  They've made a huge investment in this player; they're not keeping him from getting the surgery out of spite.  Eichel is saying that surgery is the only option for him, and he wants it or he wants to be traded.  Whether you agree with him or not, that puts the Sabres in a tough position.

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1 hour ago, Gorbachav55 said:

I'm not saying there's something inherently wrong with it; I am saying there is something inherently risky about it, and people who are treating the Sabres like they're stuck in 19th century medical practices are going a bit too far.  They're not asking him to get leeched or telling him it's the vapors.  This is a spinal injury and he wants spinal surgery.  That's really serious.  From what I've read, I come down on Eichel's side and think Buffalo is making the wrong call, but I don't think it's an unreasonable position for them to take.  They've made a huge investment in this player; they're not keeping him from getting the surgery out of spite.  Eichel is saying that surgery is the only option for him, and he wants it or he wants to be traded.  Whether you agree with him or not, that puts the Sabres in a tough position.

So, i get you're new here but you definitely have some really good points and observations!..... :D :D :D :P 

but seriously, I get what you're saying...and honestly Eichel is just using it as an excuse to want a trade...or an additional reason as to why. He wanted out before any of this. Lehner pipped in about his time as a Sabre and was saying something in his experience that was similar or found that the medical staff they hired to be really inept. I doubt ROR speaks up, but he already did enough to hurt the Sabres reputation by saying he lost the passion for the game playing there...

I still think every day he's not traded is another day they lose leverage. Every GM is saying the price is too high, and if Eichel is still a Sabre come the start of the season without the surgery, without playing...the pressure is REALLLY going to be on Adams and we inch closer and closer to his NTC kicking in and the ask will be significantly less... and then if he just keeps being so stubborn about it...about the surgery, about the trade...I mean he might lose Eichel for nothing. In the most extreme scenario.

I'm sure what some GMs are offering isn't BAD. But if he stays to his guns...what GMs will eventually be offering and he'll need to take to salvage any of it will be a lot less than if he just went for the trade now.

Edited by Jasoaks

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To me, it feels really weird.

BUF guys in the past - and just last Spring - have publicly talked about how they are not exactly enthusiastic about playing there.  That's just a fact.  And Eichel is one.  Most NHL guys are ULTRA competitive and want to win, so all that makes sense. Now, how you handle that is debatable.

So, now we have a star player with a big contract who wants to win and isn't sure BUF is the place to do that end up with a neck/spinal injury that needs fixing.  And here is where it all goes off the rails, and, imo, gets bungled by the Sabres.

 

He needs a procedure to alleviate his pain and range of motion issues.  He wants to go one way, the team another.  And they block him.  By using the CBA. On a procedure that will get him back on the ice quicker and playing in weeks, not months.

If they knew they were gonna deal him, let him get the surgery in the late Spring and deal him in the Summer.  They piddleed him off about the procedure so much that he felt the need to go public with the "disconnect".  Now, you can say that was a ploy by Eichel to get a trade started, but if they let him have the procedure this "issue" would be a non-issue.

 

So NOW, they got a guy who needs a procedure and they are not on board with it, but they want a ransom to move him.  Which to me, means that they still value him as the player he can be.  If that's the case, why are you dealing him?  Because you suck at dealing with your players?  If you think he won't bounce back, deal him for a good return, don't be holding out for a ridiculous one that no team will match.  The logic doesn't follow.

 

Losing breeds bad feelings.  Jack Eichel does not like the Sabres, and the Sabres do not like Jack Eichel.  To me, that's the issue.  The injury/surgery is all mismanagement and poor personnel relations.

 

I would be wary of the Ducks trading for Eichel for two reasons:

1. giving up too much - but I think that hurdle may have already been cleared

2. his attitude, not his physiology. He may be a great kid or an entitled prick.  I have no idea.  But I would not want to get a guy who can play great and does nothing to make the team better.

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14 hours ago, Sexlaf15 said:

 

Is this guy a Hampus Fan?...IF So I have doubts on whether Ducks will Re-sign him.

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MooseDuck

Edited by MooseDuck

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54 minutes ago, MooseDuck said:

Is this guy a Hampus Fan?...IF So I have doubts on whether Ducks will Re-sign him.

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MooseDuck

He’s not even a Ducks fan. He’s also fully invested in the Moneypuck analytics approach to building a team and thinks the Ducks should strip the team down to the studs and get rid of everyone over 25 in exchange for picks and prospects. Which is hilariously ironic given that he’s actually a Habs fan.

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53 minutes ago, dtsdlaw said:

He’s not even a Ducks fan. He’s also fully invested in the Moneypuck analytics approach to building a team and thinks the Ducks should strip the team down to the studs and get rid of everyone over 25 in exchange for picks and prospects. Which is hilariously ironic given that he’s actually a Habs fan.

OH...Those kind of Hockey fans....I do not trust analytics or whatever they call it...WASTE OF TIME.

DuckPride 4ever

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2 hours ago, tommer-1 said:

He needs a procedure to alleviate his pain and range of motion issues.  He wants to go one way, the team another.  And they block him.  By using the CBA. On a procedure that will get him back on the ice quicker and playing in weeks, not months.

If they knew they were gonna deal him, let him get the surgery in the late Spring and deal him in the Summer.  They piddleed him off about the procedure so much that he felt the need to go public with the "disconnect".  Now, you can say that was a ploy by Eichel to get a trade started, but if they let him have the procedure this "issue" would be a non-issue.

I can't help but wonder if this is all about insurance and what would be covered if Eichel's neck didn't heal 100%. It may be that the insurance policy the Sabres have on Eichel would be nullified if the player received an "experimental procedure" and that they're worried the disc replacement will fall under that category. If that's the case, then they won't just let him get the surgery, because as long as he's their property, the Sabres are the ones bearing all of the risk if he can't return to play.

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21 minutes ago, dtsdlaw said:

I can't help but wonder if this is all about insurance and what would be covered if Eichel's neck didn't heal 100%. It may be that the insurance policy the Sabres have on Eichel would be nullified if the player received an "experimental procedure" and that they're worried the disc replacement will fall under that category. If that's the case, then they won't just let him get the surgery, because as long as he's their property, the Sabres are the ones bearing all of the risk if he can't return to play.

That could definitely be part of it.

it would be super sad if this whole thing was cooked up by Eichel and his agent as a way they thought to leverage his injury recovery into an exit from Buffalo.  players have done stupider things, and quite a few agents have attempted worse.  if this was that kind of scam, the agent is going to blame covid and ED and poor timing... but i don't think that's where the blame would lie.

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At this point, I would just say move away from Eichel. He's starting to sound more like a hassle than anything. I would prefer to give Galchenyuk at least a PTO. Heck, I would even give BR another shot. Bring Sammi back and give him #44 this time.

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57 minutes ago, Fisix said:

That could definitely be part of it.

it would be super sad if this whole thing was cooked up by Eichel and his agent as a way they thought to leverage his injury recovery into an exit from Buffalo.  players have done stupider things, and quite a few agents have attempted worse.  if this was that kind of scam, the agent is going to blame covid and ED and poor timing... but i don't think that's where the blame would lie.

Well in QMJHL Draft Where I am Players would threaten to go NCAA Route cause it will give them advantage they will be taken by the team They want...So This is IF true is nothing new to me.

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1 hour ago, dtsdlaw said:

I can't help but wonder if this is all about insurance and what would be covered if Eichel's neck didn't heal 100%. It may be that the insurance policy the Sabres have on Eichel would be nullified if the player received an "experimental procedure" and that they're worried the disc replacement will fall under that category. If that's the case, then they won't just let him get the surgery, because as long as he's their property, the Sabres are the ones bearing all of the risk if he can't return to play.

Could be, but I think the consensus is that if the disc replacement doesn't work, then he'll just get the fusion.  So, that part of the debate clouds up what you are saying, unless they are afraid the disc replacement surgery is gonna makes his head fall off his body or something.

BUF is assuming the risk, but they did that when they inked that contract with him.  Just seems like they have created their own problem.

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1 hour ago, dtsdlaw said:

I can't help but wonder if this is all about insurance and what would be covered if Eichel's neck didn't heal 100%. It may be that the insurance policy the Sabres have on Eichel would be nullified if the player received an "experimental procedure" and that they're worried the disc replacement will fall under that category. If that's the case, then they won't just let him get the surgery, because as long as he's their property, the Sabres are the ones bearing all of the risk if he can't return to play.

i wonder if suing the insurance company would help.  like a declaratory judgement that the policy as written covered it.  might put too much blood in the water, though.  shrug.

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Just now, Fisix said:

i wonder if suing the insurance company would help.  like a declaratory judgement that the policy as written covered it.  might put too much blood in the water, though.  shrug.

Suing the insurance company would be costly, protracted, and probably not be successful. 

He could file a grievance, but everyone seems to think he hasn't done that because his camp knows they would lose that in arbitration. The CBA is hard to defeat.  And the CBA says the club has right of first refusal on medical procedures. He can have the surgery, but I believe it would put him in breach of contract.

I just think it goes back to a poor relationship.  He doesn't like them, they don't like him, and when this issue came up, they played hardball.  And now it's a mess.

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On 8/19/2021 at 1:13 PM, Gorbachav55 said:

These are all good points in that Buffalo needs to be concerned with this stuff, but I don't think it changes much.  Whether they trade Eichel or not, they still have to reach the salary floor, so they're still going to have to pick up more contracts.  They can start that process now before he's traded if they want, since they'll have to cover $17.3 million in space if he's traded.  They're not going to get that back in any trade for Eichel.  You're right that the Ducks make the most sense there because of Kesler's contract, but even with Kesler included in a deal, the Ducks will need to dump someone like Henrique or Silf to make a dent in Buffalo's salary floor deficit.  And those guys both have term, which means Buffalo is going to want an additional asset to take them from the Ducks.  

It's tricky, for sure, but I think Buffalo would be wise to pick up a contract or two now to get them to the floor so they can go into the season with Eichel if they want to hold firm to that threat.  As I've continue to say, though, it's obviously much better for Buffalo to get this done sooner rather than later.  I just don't think it's a complete bluff that they are willing to hold onto Eichel until the beginning of the season.

what's stopping Buffalo from retaining some of Eichel's salary in a trade?

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1 hour ago, tommer-1 said:

Suing the insurance company would be costly, protracted, and probably not be successful. 

i've found the opposite, when the language is a little ambiguous as to coverage and the insurance company says no by default (which happens often).  it could very well be that the language here is perfectly clear, but... i have not seen an insurance contract covering a professional player contract.  if i were an insurance company, i'd have outsourced the contract drafting of a $$$ policy like this to a firm that would do an excellent job and cover an eventuality like this perfectly, but then, i'm not an insurance company, and doing what i describe would fly in the face of most insurance company de facto methods of operation. 

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Whatever happens with Eichel, I hope it happens soon because the market is dead and I don´t like it. What I really want to know is what´s going on in BM´s mind. Is he in on Eichel or is he wasting an entire offseason? And if he´s in does he have the chops to pull it of? If he doesn´t and we end up with the exact same team we ended the season with he should be fired into the sun.

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15 hours ago, DucksFan_08 said:

Whatever happens with Eichel, I hope it happens soon because the market is dead and I don´t like it. What I really want to know is what´s going on in BM´s mind. Is he in on Eichel or is he wasting an entire offseason? And if he´s in does he have the chops to pull it of? If he doesn´t and we end up with the exact same team we ended the season with he should be fired into the sun.

I am thinking about that too...With Anaheim Ducks 29th season just a Month away...Time is ticking. I ask WHAT is the hold up.

DuckPride 4ever

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1 minute ago, Sexlaf15 said:

 

awww i thought Manson had ties to Winnipeg....dad, right?

It's a shame these players seem to want to keep playing in Anaheim lol

As far as the price....I mean, I get why BM would want BOTH for each player. Manson/Rakell are not a 1-for-1 type of player. Especially if that ONE piece isn't really proven (although a top prospect isn't the worst...)

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5 minutes ago, Jasoaks said:

awww i thought Manson had ties to Winnipeg....dad, right?

It's a shame these players seem to want to keep playing in Anaheim lol

As far as the price....I mean, I get why BM would want BOTH for each player. Manson/Rakell are not a 1-for-1 type of player. Especially if that ONE piece isn't really proven (although a top prospect isn't the worst...)

Pandemic? He has a 1-year-old and Canada was super locked down at the TDL compared to most US cities. I got the sense that not very many players playing in the US really wanted to be traded to a Canadian team back in April given the restrictions.

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14 minutes ago, dtsdlaw said:

Pandemic? He has a 1-year-old and Canada was super locked down at the TDL compared to most US cities. I got the sense that not very many players playing in the US really wanted to be traded to a Canadian team back in April given the restrictions.

Yeah, blame this one on Murray again for giving him the NTC to begin with.  I don't blame Manson for using it; that's his right.  And it makes a ton of sense not to want to go to Winnipeg in the middle of a pandemic.  Or any time at all, really.  It's Winnipeg.  (Sorry, I have no idea if Winnipeg is that bad - I've heard players don't like it, but it actually sounds kind of nice to me.)

As for that piece by Stephens, I enjoyed it because I enjoy all his stuff, but it really was just a therapy session for Duck fans. There's nothing going on with this team and no real hope that anything will happen, whether you're team tank or team improve.  The franchise is at a standstill right now and they don't seem to care that fans are checking out in droves.  It's sad.

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42 minutes ago, dtsdlaw said:

Pandemic? He has a 1-year-old and Canada was super locked down at the TDL compared to most US cities. I got the sense that not very many players playing in the US really wanted to be traded to a Canadian team back in April given the restrictions.

oh I meant didn't his Dad play for Winnipeg?? I completely understand all the pandemic stuff....I also thought that this trade he nixed was recent, not at the TDL. Yeah, I completely understand Manson not wanting to go at the TDL.

I think BM is a well respected GM around the league and I think is one of the most experienced. I really don't think him doing nothing is necessarily bad even though optically it looks terrible. Don't overpay for Eichel and don't give up players for less than they are worth. But there were opportunities earlier on that other teams took advantage of and we are worse 'cause of it. I do think he's aging out the more and more I look at it. Just like how Spielberg eventually started making bad movies...at a certain point...the game has evolved past what you can evolve to.

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1 hour ago, Sexlaf15 said:

 

Makes you understand why there is no news on Ducks Trade Front......I agree it's Hair pulling annoyance that there is no movement in Ducks Trade front.

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11 hours ago, Jasoaks said:

oh I meant didn't his Dad play for Winnipeg?? I completely understand all the pandemic stuff....I also thought that this trade he nixed was recent, not at the TDL. Yeah, I completely understand Manson not wanting to go at the TDL.

I think BM is a well respected GM around the league and I think is one of the most experienced. I really don't think him doing nothing is necessarily bad even though optically it looks terrible. Don't overpay for Eichel and don't give up players for less than they are worth. But there were opportunities earlier on that other teams took advantage of and we are worse 'cause of it. I do think he's aging out the more and more I look at it. Just like how Spielberg eventually started making bad movies...at a certain point...the game has evolved past what you can evolve to.

I agree on Eichel and not moving players if other teams underpay but he could have at least added some picks by taking on bad contracts.

As for Spielberg, The Post was a great movie and Ready Player One was a blast (both from 2017). BM is no Spielberg.

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2 hours ago, DucksFan_08 said:

I agree on Eichel and not moving players if other teams underpay but he could have at least added some picks by taking on bad contracts.

As for Spielberg, The Post was a great movie and Ready Player One was a blast (both from 2017). BM is no Spielberg.

I haven't seen The Post, but we'll have to agree to disagree on Ready Player One.

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On 8/20/2021 at 2:28 PM, Fisix said:

That could definitely be part of it.

it would be super sad if this whole thing was cooked up by Eichel and his agent as a way they thought to leverage his injury recovery into an exit from Buffalo.  players have done stupider things, and quite a few agents have attempted worse.  if this was that kind of scam, the agent is going to blame covid and ED and poor timing... but i don't think that's where the blame would lie.

I've wondered that myself and somewhere on this thread I think I even said as much.  No player wants to be perceived to be a bad apple and if true it would give Eichel a way to exit without looking a jerk or basically telling the Sabres fanbase that he has no faith the team will be winning a cup anytime soon.

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