DucksFan_08

Trouble on the horizon for RC?

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Last weekend was not a good weekend to be a Ducks fan. Losing back - to back, being outshot 2-1. Especially losing at home against buffalo on a tribute night hurts.

Pointswise our start isn't that bad but we all know if it weren't for Gibson/Miller our record would have been much worse. Do injuries still count as an excuse or is it time to let RC walk?

Thanks for helping us win The Cup but for me it's the latter.

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4 hours ago, DucksFan_08 said:

Last weekend was not a good weekend to be a Ducks fan. Losing back - to back, being outshot 2-1. Especially losing at home against buffalo on a tribute night hurts.

Pointswise our start isn't that bad but we all know if it weren't for Gibson/Miller our record would have been much worse. Do injuries still count as an excuse or is it time to let RC walk?

Thanks for helping us win The Cup but for me it's the latter.

Bolding for emphasis. This cannot be understated. We are crazy lucky to have not just one but TWO excellent goalies many teams would be bottom dwellers if they played they same. Absurd

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It’s frustrating to watch our Defensemen just turning over the puck over and over again because they can’t handle the forechecking pressure. Montour, Lindholm, and Fowler are suppose to be good skaters so it’s hard to understand of course our forwards have to be moving as well. Also the talk about being quicker and a new system hmmm I don’t see it. at some point we have to make an adjustment somewhere 

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10 minutes ago, Pazonator said:

It’s frustrating to watch our Defensemen just turning over the puck over and over again because they can’t handle the forechecking pressure. Montour, Lindholm, and Fowler are suppose to be good skaters so it’s hard to understand of course our forwards have to be moving as well. Also the talk about being quicker and a new system hmmm I don’t see it. at some point we have to make an adjustment somewhere 

We're not that team. Bob Murray was truly kidding himself when he said we can be a fast team but just changing the system and getting some depth, fast players. The problem is a lot of our players don't work playing that system. Getzlaf is one of them. And maybe they could adapt...but right now it's looking like either no, they can't...or it's gonna be a looooong time before they do and get comfortable with it.

But the thing is...that's fine. We saw the Caps handle Vegas in the finals and they weren't a fast team. Hell, our last game in Vegas last season we shut out a better Knights team! We weren't a "fast" team then. What we need to do is stop trying to force an identity to these players and start just playing them to their strengths. We can't be a 4-line fast team if we have Getzlaf and Perry. But like I said, I think that's fine. They have other things they can offer. They have other strengths. Play to them.

The defense seems to have no idea what to do. They seem to have lost confidence in their instincts. That's the worst thing to lose confidence in. I think the reason the 6-on-5 at the end of the last nights game looked the best they looked all game 'cause they weren't thinking. Everyone was just acting and reacting and seemed focus and was putting in the energy. They were going with their instincts.

The system isn't working. That's obviously on RC. But it's also on management forcing his hand in what system to play. And it's also on the players...obviously RC isn't saying "don't keep the puck in the zone" but when we've tried this system for 10 games and it doesn't seem to be working (despite our record) it's time to look at changing that. RC needs to do that, but he's not going to do that without BM being on board. So I can't fully just blame RC for this.

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Miller faces 45 shots last night .

That doesn't look so bad after Tampa set a new NHL record yesterday with 33 shots on goal in one period. 

52 in total. 

Edited by mulcher

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57 minutes ago, mulcher said:

Miller faces 45 shots last night .

That doesn't look so bad after Tampa set a new NHL record yesterday with 33 shots on goal in one period. 

52 in total. 

Gibson faced 45 shots the night before.

Apparently this is the new normal.

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Should we really be surprised about this though? During the off-season we were scratching our heads about why Murray would essentially keep the same coach and roster intact while also promising a different brand of hockey. Low and behold nothing has changed. We can all lament Carlyle’s system but it’s seems more noticeable that he’s losing the locker room in general. The player comments recently, especially coming from Gibson show that there it’s more than just X’s and O’s. It seems like there is a deep frustration between the players themselves and the coach.

The players (minus Gibson and Miller) definitely need to accept their responsibility for their play. Losing puck battles, horrible passing, turnovers etc. but this team should not be getting outplayed more than any team in the NHL. Especially, with the blue liners and defensive forwards on this team and that’s been the most concerning issue to me. I can understand not scoring due to a lack of talent but the team defense should be nowhere near this bad. The question is: what’s Murray’s breaking point before he makes a coaching change and/or trade?

Edited by BombaysTripleDeke
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It couldn't possibly be that the Ducks have 4 (sometimes 5) rookies playing, in which there will be growing pains. No that is too easy. It must be the coach.

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I can't believe I'm saying this, but perhaps they need to take a page out of the Dustin Brown "let's lock out the coach" playbook. That said, I'm going to burn my clothes and take an 8 hour shower.

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Just now, SelanneFTW_30 said:

It couldn't possibly be that the Ducks have 4 (sometimes 5) rookies playing, in which there will be growing pains. No that is too easy. It must be the coach.

We said this last year and those rookies/Derek Grant type players played well. I’ll take growing pains (backward passing in bad situations and a bad penalty), but it seems much more than that. 

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46 minutes ago, SelanneFTW_30 said:

It couldn't possibly be that the Ducks have 4 (sometimes 5) rookies playing, in which there will be growing pains. No that is too easy. It must be the coach.

Except the rookies aren't the ones struggling the most, so that theory goes out the window.

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2 hours ago, Pazonator said:

It’s frustrating to watch our Defensemen just turning over the puck over and over again because they can’t handle the forechecking pressure. Montour, Lindholm, and Fowler are suppose to be good skaters so it’s hard to understand of course our forwards have to be moving as well. Also the talk about being quicker and a new system hmmm I don’t see it. at some point we have to make an adjustment somewhere 

I saw Glimpses of  a “faster” and “quicker” team during the first period against Buffalo last night. We were tenacious and relentless on the forecheck. Then the second period came along and we totally changed our style of play back to the slow, hemmed in, sloppy passing Ducks we’ve all been scratching our heads about lately.

There’s  something wrong with behind the scenes and it’s killing me.

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2 hours ago, Jasoaks said:

We're not that team. Bob Murray was truly kidding himself when he said we can be a fast team but just changing the system and getting some depth, fast players. The problem is a lot of our players don't work playing that system. Getzlaf is one of them. And maybe they could adapt...but right now it's looking like either no, they can't...or it's gonna be a looooong time before they do and get comfortable with it.

But the thing is...that's fine. We saw the Caps handle Vegas in the finals and they weren't a fast team. Hell, our last game in Vegas last season we shut out a better Knights team! We weren't a "fast" team then. What we need to do is stop trying to force an identity to these players and start just playing them to their strengths. We can't be a 4-line fast team if we have Getzlaf and Perry. But like I said, I think that's fine. They have other things they can offer. They have other strengths. Play to them.

The defense seems to have no idea what to do. They seem to have lost confidence in their instincts. That's the worst thing to lose confidence in. I think the reason the 6-on-5 at the end of the last nights game looked the best they looked all game 'cause they weren't thinking. Everyone was just acting and reacting and seemed focus and was putting in the energy. They were going with their instincts.

The system isn't working. That's obviously on RC. But it's also on management forcing his hand in what system to play. And it's also on the players...obviously RC isn't saying "don't keep the puck in the zone" but when we've tried this system for 10 games and it doesn't seem to be working (despite our record) it's time to look at changing that. RC needs to do that, but he's not going to do that without BM being on board. So I can't fully just blame RC for this.

Great post overall.

Regarding the bolded, we talked about it on the board a little bit this summer, but its worth noting again that Trent Yawney's contract was not renewed this summer. Yawney had been the Admirals coach from 2012 to 2014 and the Ducks defensive coach from 2014 to 2018. You can't help but wonder how that has affected the defense overall and especially a guy like Manson, who has clearly struggled a bit this season. Manson was with the Ads in 2013-14 and part of 2014-15 before his call-up, and Yawney was basically the only coach Manson has had at the professional level prior to this season. Coincidence that Manson isn't playing like the guy we've been used to seeing over the past few years now that Yawney isn't here anymore? 

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41 minutes ago, dtsdlaw said:

Great post overall.

Regarding the bolded, we talked about it on the board a little bit this summer, but its worth noting again that Trent Yawney's contract was not renewed this summer. Yawney had been the Admirals coach from 2012 to 2014 and the Ducks defensive coach from 2014 to 2018. You can't help but wonder how that has affected the defense overall and especially a guy like Manson, who has clearly struggled a bit this season. Manson was with the Ads in 2013-14 and part of 2014-15 before his call-up, and Yawney was basically the only coach Manson has had at the professional level prior to this season. Coincidence that Manson isn't playing like the guy we've been used to seeing over the past few years now that Yawney isn't here anymore? 

Thanks!

I didn't really think much of Trent's firing...but that could be a part of it for sure! But also I feel like RC should be a better coach for the defense (for however much he is involved)...being a norris trophy winner and all...but I was thinking about it...in his first tour of duty with the Ducks...he had basically Pronger/Scotty the whole time...you're not gonna be telling them what to do. Those are players you let do their work. I think if Pronger/Scotty didn't do what RC suggested...those players are gonna win that battle lol ...and so they were probably big leaders for the D core...

Who is that now? Fowler? Yeah...they need some guidance. We miss players like Beauch here...Fowler isn't taking that leadership step it seems.

Bring Scotty on as defensive coach!!! I'm sure he saw the mess they are last night...

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Another tidbit of information that could be meaningless is Troy Terry just put up 3G and 2A I’m 2 games with the Gulls. I know the AHL is vastly different, but he looked so much more confident with the puck and seemed to really be trying to play his game and found tremendous success. 

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52 minutes ago, Jasoaks said:

Thanks!

I didn't really think much of Trent's firing...but that could be a part of it for sure! But also I feel like RC should be a better coach for the defense (for however much he is involved)...being a norris trophy winner and all...but I was thinking about it...in his first tour of duty with the Ducks...he had basically Pronger/Scotty the whole time...you're not gonna be telling them what to do. Those are players you let do their work. I think if Pronger/Scotty didn't do what RC suggested...those players are gonna win that battle lol ...and so they were probably big leaders for the D core...

Who is that now? Fowler? Yeah...they need some guidance. We miss players like Beauch here...Fowler isn't taking that leadership step it seems.

Bring Scotty on as defensive coach!!! I'm sure he saw the mess they are last night...

Pronger/Scotty were doers. Fowler?His leadership is to direct whoever he is partnered with to get into dirty areas behind the net and in the corners ,do the work so he can stand in front of the net and cross sticks with an opponent..

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Please fire Carlyle.  If that means Murray has to go too, then so be it, but Carlyle needs to be gone now.

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I hauled my happy ass all the way from Phoenix to watch that game and man that was brutal. Ducks seem to not win these big games when they have a great atmosphere to win. Paul and Teemu should of suited up because we obviously needed something in the last half of the game.
Obviously I was there mostly for the ceremony but damn we were up 2-0. I will give them that the reffing was embarrassing but it was the same issue, way too many shots allowed. Getzlaf clearly wasnt 100% and there was extended time in our zone with too many penalties. They have been better on the penalties overall this season but not this game.

Also I hate to admit this because I love Manson but hes been struggling lately. Hes been juked quite a bit and made many more bad passes and turnovers that usual. I don't know whats up with him. I'm sure he will get back to form but I was wondering if he was hurt as well already. Not sure if you guys heard anything on that front.

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The Ducks do not have a big gritty Dman in the entire lineup. Manson is the closest to gritty out on the open ice but not in the corners. Fowler and Montour have zero grit. Lindholm is big but he is more a Linstrom type dman.  As much as we all disliked Bieksa and even Frankie those two filled that role. It's clear that Schenn is not up to that task.

Bottom line is nobody on the team seems willing to step up and be a punishing type of player.

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2 hours ago, gorbachav5 said:

Please fire Carlyle.  If that means Murray has to go too, then so be it, but Carlyle needs to be gone now.

It probably will mean Murray needs to go, too.

I don't see RC getting fired any time soon. Any attempt at this will be met with "every loss has been by 1 goal with an empty netter" and if that doesn't work... "But, look at our record." or.... "but there have been injuries...I don't have the complete team. It's quite amazing what we've accomplished with so many injuries." or... "it's growing pains as they adjust to the new speed system you're asking for."

And if NONE of that works to convince Bob...it doesn't matter 'cause Bob will give RC time to correct the ship. It's really up to the players to speak up. If Getzlaf/Kesler want a different system/different coach...then we will lose RC. If they don't speak up to that...it's unlikely he's going anywhere.

The question then becomes do Henry and Susan believe Bob isn't doing his job and is there someone who can do it better available? I think looking at it from an overall stand point...well...I could see an argument made either way from their perspective. So, it's gonna be hard to lose Bob, IMO.

So, it's up to the players to speak up if they feel they need a different voice behind the bench. That's really the only way I see RC leaving. I don't know how Getzlaf and Kesler feel about it. I seem to remember them being vocal about wanting a coach like RC...

Edited by Jasoaks

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They're giving up 40 shots per game.  If the Ducks had Buffalo's roster or Detroit's roster, that would make sense.  Or if they gave up 45 a couple times while all the vets were out and the kids struggled, that would be understandable.  But you can point to two games this season - Detroit (the worst team in the league) and St. Louis - where the Ducks didn't embarrass themselves in being completely outplayed.  Every other game (including two against Arizona) has looked like the Ducks' goalie facing the firing squad.

I don't think Carlyle will be fired either, for several reasons.  One, there's not going to be a mutiny.  Things would have to be egregious behind the scenes for that to happen.  Two, I think Murray knows (or at least worries) that Carlyle is his last coach.  Firing Carlyle AGAIN would not be a good look for him.  The Samuelis would have to seriously consider letting Murray go if he came to them and wanted to fire Carlyle.  Three, the Ducks have still won more games than they've lost, and it's easy to point to that and claim success.  I think it would take a complete collapse for several weeks for Carlyle to be fired, and I think the roster is too good for that to happen, particularly when you've got Gibson and Miller bailing the team out most nights.

 

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3 minutes ago, Jasoaks said:

It probably will mean Murray needs to go, too.

I don't see RC getting fired any time soon. Any attempt at this will be met with "every loss has been by 1 goal with an empty netter" and if that doesn't work... "But, look at our record." or.... "but there have been injuries...I don't have the complete team. It's quite amazing what we've accomplished with so many injuries." or... "it's growing pains as they adjust to the new speed system you're asking for."

And if NONE of that works to convince Bob...it doesn't matter 'cause Bob will give RC time to correct the ship. It's really up to the players to speak up. If Getzlaf/Kesler want a different system/different coach...then we will lose RC. If they don't speak up to that...it's unlikely he's going anywhere.

The question then becomes do Henry and Susan believe Bob isn't doing his job and is there someone who can do it better available? I think looking at it from an overall stand point...well...I could see an argument made either way from their perspective. So, it's gonna be hard to lose Bob, IMO.

So, it's up to the players to speak up if they feel they need a different voice behind the bench. That's really the only way I see RC leaving. I don't know how Getzlaf and Kesler feel about it. I seem to remember them being vocal about wanting a coach like RC...

I doubt Murray is going anywhere until his contract is up after next season at the earliest, if at all. His track record is good enough to where he’ll easily weather the current storm. He’ll eventually just fire Carlyle, get a reset with a new coach and fans will be less upset with him. Carlyle is going to be the fall guy in all of this. With it being so early in the season, my guess is that the soonest he’ll get axed before the end of November if the team doesn’t drastically turn it around. With how bad the team has been, it could be sooner. Who knows at this point.

 

 

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Just now, BombaysTripleDeke said:

I doubt Murray is going anywhere until his contract is up after next season at the earliest, if at all. His track record is good enough to where he’ll easily weather the current storm. He’ll eventually just fire Carlyle, get a reset with a new coach and fans will be less upset with him. Carlyle is going to be the fall guy in all of this. With it being so early in the season, my guess is that the soonest he’ll get axed before the end of November if the team doesn’t drastically turn it around. With how bad the team has been, it could be sooner. Who knows at this point.

 

 

This will be Murray's 4th try at a coach, though.  How many GMs get that many coaches?  And it's exacerbated by the fact that he's gone through Carlyle twice, and it's ended poorly both times (hypothetically speaking).  My best guess at this point is that, barring a complete, Hindenburg-esque disaster, both stay until the end of the season and both are let go at that time.

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21 minutes ago, gorbachav5 said:

This will be Murray's 4th try at a coach, though.  How many GMs get that many coaches?  And it's exacerbated by the fact that he's gone through Carlyle twice, and it's ended poorly both times (hypothetically speaking).  My best guess at this point is that, barring a complete, Hindenburg-esque disaster, both stay until the end of the season and both are let go at that time.

Oh, very few do but Murray's tenure as GM has been stellar for the organization, especially for a small market team like the Ducks. Only missing the playoffs twice in 10 years, 5 straight division titles two WCF appearances and a GM of the Year award should likely give him a whole lot of slack with the Samuelis. Enough so that he can screw up with re-hiring Carlyle and still be the GM. My thinking is also that Murray wouldn't have taken the obvious risk of re-hiring Carlyle if he thought it could cost him his job at all. If Murray wants to remain the GM in Anaheim then he'll likely have to fire Carlyle before the season goes off the rails and becomes a lost one. I'd like to think that the Samuelis had serious discussions with Murray during the offseason about the direction of team and that there would be a red line for Murray to do it. 

 

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Murray stays, RC goes, we get the Gulls' coach by January.

Allowing 40 goals would be fine if we had an intimidating offence.  We do not currently have that, at least not with the lineups we fielded with Getz back.

TOI disparity still isn't as bad as any time last year, but it got markedly worse since Getz is back, and worse game over game.  That's a coaching f-up.

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14 minutes ago, Fisix said:

Murray stays, RC goes, we get the Gulls' coach by January.

Allowing 40 goals would be fine if we had an intimidating offence.  We do not currently have that, at least not with the lineups we fielded with Getz back.

TOI disparity still isn't as bad as any time last year, but it got markedly worse since Getz is back, and worse game over game.  That's a coaching f-up.

RC has no idea what to do with so many kids in the lineup.

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20 minutes ago, DuckFan4Life said:

RC has no idea what to do with so many kids in the lineup.

That will be mitigated with Ritchie, Kase, and Silf. back in the lineup (which will happen sooner than later). 

As far as RC goes, if things don't change with the above 3 back, then I think RC will be shown the door.  No way Murray is gonna let Gibson get beat up night after night facing 30-40+ shots every single game.  

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1 hour ago, DuckFan4Life said:

RC has no idea what to do with so many kids in the lineup.

Is that true? I mean, I know his reputation...but I thought his all rookie line was fine and his use of Steel on the power play seemed to be pretty good. Getzlaf came back and then he lost what to do. It could just be it was the right amount of kids...now he's like...doesn't know what to do where the balance isn't right. This does get mitigated with less kids in the line up...but it could also be mitigated with MORE kids in the line up!! Let's bring them all in! Let's have 9 forward rookies!!!!

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