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Trouble on the horizon for RC?

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13 hours ago, RobD360 said:

Bombay is right. Our record is skewed due to the absolute heroics of Gibson and Miller (mostly Gibson). This team is not a reflection of its points and standings. Most games played have been bad, me personally I think it’s RC. And by process of elimination it’s obviously not Perry either. Our D is not injured and much too fleet afoot and skilled to be this bad and so it can only be the coach who is mismanaging them. The D plays without  fluidity or a logical system of funneling out the puck from our zone. 

A lot of exiting the zone is also the the forwards. The D either doesn’t have a viable passing option or the turnover is in the neutral zone. This isn’t to say there isn’t a problem with the D or the style they’re trying to play. In an early game, they looked great getting the puck out and I thought it was great and much better than Fowler always skating backwards and setting up behind our own goal. Unfortunately it didn’t last. 

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I was surprised that RC didn't bench Manson Fowler for a big part of the third to send a message.Although Getz added his thoughts.

Getz's post game interview .  "Embarrassing," captain Getzlaf said, "the way we play defence and the way we swing our sticks around and not help our goalie." He added an expletive before the word Embarrassing.

Perhaps that might stir some of the others.

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I don’t want to quote the long post above but will respond to some of the statements. 

I believe the “older” players are trying to incorporate the changes which is part of the problem. They’re in their own heads trying to play a game in a different way than they have most if not all their lives. Easy to say they need to adapt but you can look at many examples around the league where a player struggles with one team and shines with another. 

Manson and Fowler have “mental disease”?  Could it be that they’re still trying to get comfortable with each other’s style of play which is very different? I don’t believe for a second that either one of them would tank because they don’t like their D partner. That’s ludicrous. 

The team is trying to play the new style of NHL hockey, faster and less physical. We want to see more hits but they were burned in the playoffs with hits and finishing checks to a speedier team that was skating away with the puck. The team was swept in the playoffs mainly because of their style of play. 

I believe the team is sorely missing Silfverberg and Kase. Both less physical guys who can play the speed game without hesitation. 

Im not sure of RC’s future and I was one that wasn’t happy about him returning. We were told at the time that RC adapted his style to mimic the new NHL. Unfortunately, he either didn’t or the players aren’t. I think it’s a mixture of both and RC currently can’t figure out what to do with the players he has. 

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50 minutes ago, Fisix said:

What you're seeing is a necessary step in a rebuild, dictated by BM or not. 

RC is a coach, not a piece of granite, and as a coach, should be able to make adjustments and incorporate them into his game plan.  An inflexible coach isn't a coach, he's a manual.  The team should be flexible enough to incorporate the changes into their individual games/lines as well.  They get paid enough to have that flexibility... and I'm not seeing that. 

What I do see, unfortunately, is a litany of crutches, and the inevitable result of trying to rely on them instead of buying into the new system.  RC doesn't appear to be getting the point across to the team, the team doesn't appear to be engaging (as a team) with the new philosophy, and I see hints of intransigence on all sides.  Unacceptable.  In fact, total BS from a group of so-called professionals.  

For example, Manson and Fowler are excellent d-men, and unless there's some kind of injury we don't know about, they're both playing so bad that it hints at tanking because they're not paired with who they want or they don't want to play the game they've been asked to play.  Both of which are BS.  This same kind of mental disease seems to be floating around the team, with individual medium and low points every game. 

But, the lack of ability to execute... if I was coaching a youth sports team, I'd say it was 20% lack of skills practice and 80% lack of effective communication of a plan (which includes lacking a plan) to the team.  That's either disorganized coaching or lack of coaching.  It could be conflicting coaching.  If individuals are fighting the coaching, then 80% of the time could be being wasted in convincing them to practice the plays, and so they only get 20% of the time they should actually trying to smooth out the execution.  Some players get it and are doing it right, but one line (or part of a line) executing the plays correctly isn't enough.

Anyway, not only are the players often out of position, but I see a lot of lack of desire to fight back and cover, which looks more like lack of effort than it looks like lack of ability to skate fast enough to cover.  I see players giving up on the play early and giving up on getting back to cover really, really early.  The d-men aren't old, and they aren't tired enough to excuse it that way.  So... what I see is pretty worrying.  

One thing - we have so many players on IR... that pressure could be a contributing source of anti-motivation and anti-team chemistry, across the board, and so could be poisoning team optimism, in a way that makes it much more difficult to push a new system.  It's not an excuse, but it's worth mentioning.  

Right now, I want to send the whole team down to the AHL for some conditioning, mental more than anything.  They do not look like they're having fun.

I think you bring up a lot of very good points! It is likely a multitude of things and can be one thing over another.

As far as the bolded paragraph, this is something I noticed at the game on Sunday...where I was able to look where I wanted to look; not limited by camera positions. There seemed to be a consistent lack of support for each other. Either that's not understanding the system or lack of communication or not being a good hockey player (unlikely the third). A dump with NO chase...or a Duck goes into the corner but all the other teammates leave or skate to areas that are VERY clearly covered. A d-man pinching without a forward covering the point or something. It just seemed like a complete lack of support for each other. I don't know if something happened in the off season that made everyone hate each other...but...no one on the teams seems to...care about anyone.

I was just thinking too that I am truly shocked at how bad our D has been and our defense in general as a team. This was the one area I really thought we would be excelling in. Like you said...their not old...and to add to that, they aren't missing anyone. Our entire blue line is actually very good. I've been overall impressed by Schenn/Pettersson...so it's just like...how is that so bad this season so far???

 

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4 game Losing streak is unacceptable but also SHAMEFUL. Ducks should have at least set the Tone over the past few games. But it's clear missing some within our Team is a factor. No Excuses or Complaints last night. Ducks Loss Plain  and Simple.

DuckPride 4ever

MooseDuck

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1 hour ago, mulcher said:

I was surprised that RC didn't bench Manson Fowler for a big part of the third to send a message.Although Getz added his thoughts.

Getz's post game interview .  "Embarrassing," captain Getzlaf said, "the way we play defence and the way we swing our sticks around and not help our goalie." He added an expletive before the word Embarrassing.

Perhaps that might stir some of the others.

Hopefully it stirs Bob to do something 

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3 hours ago, WolfgangDuck said:

Not surprised at what's happening at all.  When you try to change your identity on the fly you can expect it's going to be rough.  Feel sorry for Gibby as he has been under siege.  It was fun to watch as just a nice change of pace initially but teams have quickly figured out they can bully the Ducks and control the puck at will.  This is going to be a long long season.  I know Carlyle everyone wants out and he may not make it through the season...but how about the guy the hired him and made the decision to change the style of play on the fly with a team that carries a few highly paid, aging players that play more of a grinding style of play.  Really stupid in my book.  

Reading several comments in this thread (and having watched all our games), here's what is being said:  The Ducks can't play fast;  The Ducks can't or don't play rough;  The opposition does play fast, which is why they out shoot us so badly;  The competition is also bullying the Ducks, i.e., playing rough  (while also playing faster).  Do I have this right?  I see a lack of logic between how the Ducks are viewed and how their opposition is viewed  = rough not being fast for one, but being fast yet tough for the others is being done.  My take on this series of comments is 'we're screwed' because nothing we have or do is likely to change the dynamics being discussed.

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53 minutes ago, Jasoaks said:

I think you bring up a lot of very good points! It is likely a multitude of things and can be one thing over another.

As far as the bolded paragraph, this is something I noticed at the game on Sunday...where I was able to look where I wanted to look; not limited by camera positions. There seemed to be a consistent lack of support for each other. Either that's not understanding the system or lack of communication or not being a good hockey player (unlikely the third). A dump with NO chase...or a Duck goes into the corner but all the other teammates leave or skate to areas that are VERY clearly covered. A d-man pinching without a forward covering the point or something. It just seemed like a complete lack of support for each other. I don't know if something happened in the off season that made everyone hate each other...but...no one on the teams seems to...care about anyone.

I was just thinking too that I am truly shocked at how bad our D has been and our defense in general as a team. This was the one area I really thought we would be excelling in. Like you said...their not old...and to add to that, they aren't missing anyone. Our entire blue line is actually very good. I've been overall impressed by Schenn/Pettersson...so it's just like...how is that so bad this season so far???

 

Against  Chicago we left Patrick Kane to be open right in front of the net.  That was bad, but he's a great player and he's capable of doing that.

Now, against Dallas:  How is it that several of their scores and great chances were from their guys bringing the puck to the net with a Dman on them but no "on them" in a way to prevent the move to the front of the goal?  Those guys, none of whom had scored a goal this season until they met their favorite team, The Ducks, are NOT Patrick Kane or even close.  The D has been missing; the contact is largely missing (I thought this was hockey)....what gives.

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I know we have discussed this before but in a past thread people said that it’s the owners who make the ‘sole’ decision on Bobs hire and fire but I always found that to be not true somehow. Doesn’t the Chief Executive Officer (CEO), Michael Schulman (with the blessing of the Owners) hire and fire the GM? It never made sense that the Samuelis solely held this position as they don’t come from a hockey background and as such don’t understand the game as deeply and throughly as the professional insider would. But none-the-less there were a few folks here who adamantly said it’s no one but the owners decision and choosing of the GM....

Anyway, just wanted peoples take on this one more time to see if this indeed is the case.  Note: Bob is the Executive “”Vice”” President/General Manager; as such the CEO would preside over his position, right?? 

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3 minutes ago, SteveinTamarindo said:

Reading several comments in this thread (and having watched all our games), here's what is being said:  The Ducks can't play fast;  The Ducks can't or don't play rough;  The opposition does play fast, which is why they out shoot us so badly;  The competition is also bullying the Ducks, i.e., playing rough  (while also playing faster).  Do I have this right?  I see a lack of logic between how the Ducks are viewed and how their opposition is viewed  = rough not being fast for one, but being fast yet tough for the others is being done.  My take on this series of comments is 'we're screwed' because nothing we have or do is likely to change the dynamics being discussed.

I would assume everyone posting here "has watched all our games".  The Ducks are playing faster than they have in the past due to the "new" play style.  I said not long after Murray announced the change in play style that it won't match our personnel and it doesn't.  As far as bullying...look no further than the attack on Kase and more recently the attack on Petterson and his came with no retaliation.  We've lost our identity.  

With that said, I believe many of us feel our Stanley Cup window is closed.  The Getz, Perry, Kesler core is now on their downside.  So I don't mind re-building around our youth but it's going to be tough to watch.  To blame Carlyle is silly, IMO, Murray is the one who is changing things on the fly.  There is no point for everyone to get upset, even though I too find myself getting upset with our lack of puck possession.  The growing pains of the torch being passed on to the kids is going to be very painful for us to watch when we all want to win now.

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1 minute ago, WolfgangDuck said:

I would assume everyone posting here "has watched all our games".  The Ducks are playing faster than they have in the past due to the "new" play style.  I said not long after Murray announced the change in play style that it won't match our personnel and it doesn't.  As far as bullying...look no further than the attack on Kase and more recently the attack on Petterson and his came with no retaliation.  We've lost our identity.  

With that said, I believe many of us feel our Stanley Cup window is closed.  The Getz, Perry, Kesler core is now on their downside.  So I don't mind re-building around our youth but it's going to be tough to watch.  To blame Carlyle is silly, IMO, Murray is the one who is changing things on the fly.  There is no point for everyone to get upset, even though I too find myself getting upset with our lack of puck possession.  The growing pains of the torch being passed on to the kids is going to be very painful for us to watch when we all want to win now.

I think people here get that but it’s frustrating to not have a coach who goes along with that transition as well, someone like Eakins instead of the old schooler RC. It can be less painful with a coach who not only understands the new NHL but also has a pulse on what works with this current roster. This too is on Bob for not managing. 

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4 minutes ago, SteveinTamarindo said:

Reading several comments in this thread (and having watched all our games), here's what is being said:  The Ducks can't play fast;  The Ducks can't or don't play rough;  The opposition does play fast, which is why they out shoot us so badly;  The competition is also bullying the Ducks, i.e., playing rough  (while also playing faster).  Do I have this right?  I see a lack of logic between how the Ducks are viewed and how their opposition is viewed  = rough not being fast for one, but being fast yet tough for the others is being done.  My take on this series of comments is 'we're screwed' because nothing we have or do is likely to change the dynamics being discussed.

Gibson had to basically fight back in the last Dallas game after being bumped because no one else was standing up. That's your franchise goalie. That's the guy that's carrying their sorry butts and they can't do anything until Gibson takes the first step? Yeah, the competition is bullying the Ducks, while playing faster and smarter. The Ducks are being outplayed, out hustled and out coached. Watch some other teams then watch our team. You'll see the difference and how far back the Ducks really are.

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11 minutes ago, RobD360 said:

I think people here get that but it’s frustrating to not have a coach who goes along with that transition as well, someone like Eakins instead of the old schooler RC. It can be less painful with a coach who not only understands the new NHL but also has a pulse on what works with this current roster. This too is on Bob for not managing. 

Eakins does well with kids he caught people's attention while coaching Toronto's Marlies .He hasn't done well in his brief encounter at NHL level though.

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6 minutes ago, mulcher said:

Eakins does well with kids he caught people's attention while coaching Toronto's Marlies .He hasn't done well in his brief encounter at NHL level though.

This. I'm terrified of having Eakins as a coach. He was HORRIBLE in Edmonton. I really don't like our chances of being a successful team with a coach that the OILERS felt wasn't good enough. The Oilers!...

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26 minutes ago, WolfgangDuck said:

I would assume everyone posting here "has watched all our games".  The Ducks are playing faster than they have in the past due to the "new" play style.  I said not long after Murray announced the change in play style that it won't match our personnel and it doesn't.  As far as bullying...look no further than the attack on Kase and more recently the attack on Petterson and his came with no retaliation.  We've lost our identity.  

With that said, I believe many of us feel our Stanley Cup window is closed.  The Getz, Perry, Kesler core is now on their downside.  So I don't mind re-building around our youth but it's going to be tough to watch.  To blame Carlyle is silly, IMO, Murray is the one who is changing things on the fly.  There is no point for everyone to get upset, even though I too find myself getting upset with our lack of puck possession.  The growing pains of the torch being passed on to the kids is going to be very painful for us to watch when we all want to win now.

I agree with the first bolded. I'm guessing they are being told they need to transform who they are from the big, "bad" ducks...to a fast team. So, skate more and stop hitting...? That's a bit unfortunate :\

The 2nd bolded I feel could be true, but I don't think it's as bad as it seems. I don't see why we can't develop a couple lines with these guys to continue with the grinding, bashing, hitting that they do so well! While having our other 2 lines be much more about being fast quick and younger...so they can still be nurtured as the future without truly losing the identity. The identity of this team needs to be "they will win the game." Changing it to having a certain line with slightly different identities that plays to the players strengths isn't bad.

The roles of what each defender needs to be needs to be better defined to what works for the player. Fowler probably stays as a stick checker, good passing, great skating defenseman...while someone like Manson can be a hard hitting one. etc...

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5 minutes ago, Jasoaks said:

This. I'm terrified of having Eakins as a coach. He was HORRIBLE in Edmonton. I really don't like our chances of being a successful team with a coach that the OILERS felt wasn't good enough. The Oilers!...

I'm not sold on Eakins as our next head coach due to his spotty record down in San Diego.  If I remember correctly, they got outshot pretty badly the last couple of seasons as well.  But I don't hold the Oilers stint against him.  That was a toxic environment where he was given none of the tools he needed to build a winning team.

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7 minutes ago, gorbachav5 said:

I'm not sold on Eakins as our next head coach due to his spotty record down in San Diego.  If I remember correctly, they got outshot pretty badly the last couple of seasons as well.  But I don't hold the Oilers stint against him.  That was a toxic environment where he was given none of the tools he needed to build a winning team.

Dallas was given a divided team which he tried his best to unite but failed.

DuckPride 4ever

MooseDuck

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**sigh** I honestly only mention Eakins cause others here have said he could be good. I know he came from a terrible Oiler team. If Eakins is not the guy then Bob really has his work cut out for him.  

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13 minutes ago, gorbachav5 said:

I'm not sold on Eakins as our next head coach due to his spotty record down in San Diego.  If I remember correctly, they got outshot pretty badly the last couple of seasons as well.  But I don't hold the Oilers stint against him.  That was a toxic environment where he was given none of the tools he needed to build a winning team.

That's fair. And my comment is in a vacuum, I'll admit that...and it's also possible he has improved. Maybe his San Diego issues have just been he's not given great players, but give him great players he'll be good.

 

4 minutes ago, RobD360 said:

**sigh** I honestly only mention Eakins cause others here have said he could be good. I know he came from a terrible Oiler team. If Eakins is not the guy then Bob really has his work cut out for him.  

No, no I get it. I've been meaning to make my complaint about Eakins for a while lol I do think BM has his work cut out for him. He had a chance to grab Travis Green and he didn't. But to be fair, the players were calling for a coach that would hold "everyone" more responsible. Selanne spoke highly of RC (right? didn't he at some point?) and spoke very poorly of BB. My guess is Getzlaf/Kesler played a big part in RC's rehire. And to be fair to RC I do think he did a helluva job coaching that playoffs. We didn't get to the finals 'cause Bernier couldn't make up for Gibson's injury. But any, I digress...my main point is Travis Green was probably gonna be more of BB type than the RC type that players seemed to be requesting.

I don't know if the players are upset with RC. It doesn't seem like it, to be honest.

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12 minutes ago, RobD360 said:

**sigh** I honestly only mention Eakins cause others here have said he could be good. I know he came from a terrible Oiler team. If Eakins is not the guy then Bob really has his work cut out for him.  

Bob had his opportunity when he fired Boudreau to bring in someone better than Carlyle but chose not to. He had chances this off season as well but decided to keep Carlyle. What's happening now is just as much on Murray as it is Carlyle. If Getzlaf wanted Carlyle back then it's on him too. Eakins would be better served in San Diego imo but he probably gets the interim position if RC gets canned. Bob is just making life hard on Bob.

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3 minutes ago, perry_mvp said:

Bob had his opportunity when he fired Boudreau to bring in someone better than Carlyle but chose not to. He had chances this off season as well but decided to keep Carlyle. What's happening now is just as much on Murray as it is Carlyle. If Getzlaf wanted Carlyle back then it's on him too. Eakins would be better served in San Diego imo but he probably gets the interim position if RC gets canned. Bob is just making life hard on Bob.

He had that chance...choosing to bring back one of the Ducks Winningest Coaches was controversial for many of us. I know some wanted someone instead with RC.

DuckPride 4ever

MooseDuck

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4 hours ago, WolfgangDuck said:

Not surprised at what's happening at all.  When you try to change your identity on the fly you can expect it's going to be rough.  Feel sorry for Gibby as he has been under siege.  It was fun to watch as just a nice change of pace initially but teams have quickly figured out they can bully the Ducks and control the puck at will.  This is going to be a long long season.  I know Carlyle everyone wants out and he may not make it through the season...but how about the guy the hired him and made the decision to change the style of play on the fly with a team that carries a few highly paid, aging players that play more of a grinding style of play.  Really stupid in my book.  

I know what you're saying here, but I can't help but think back to Boudreau installing the trap in December 2015, thereby changing this team from a last place disappointment to a Jennings trophy winner in less than 3.5 months. BB made that system change basically over a holiday weekend, and he was able to pull it off in such a short span of time because the players bought in and did the work necessary to make the change. A good coach will get his players to buy in and do the work. A bad coach won't.

I agree with the posters who are pointing out the positioning issues and effort/passion issues. It's not that these players can't play faster, its just that the players aren't buying in to what RC is trying to make them do. This "speed" change thing isn't about skating faster (which we can't do). It's about moving the puck faster (which we can, but aren't). I don't know if RC has lost the dressing room or not, but they certainly look like a clown show on the ice. Everyone keeps banging on the defenders, but I think the forwards are where the problems lie the most. Our forwards look completely lost in all three zones, to the point where our defenders don't even now if they have puck support for breakout passes or whether they have help from back-checkers. Nobody trusts anyone out there on the ice right now to be in the right spot or to make the right play, and I don't know how you can look anywhere but right at the entire coaching staff for blame.

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20 minutes ago, dtsdlaw said:

I know what you're saying here, but I can't help but think back to Boudreau installing the trap in December 2015, thereby changing this team from a last place disappointment to a Jennings trophy winner in less than 3.5 months. BB made that system change basically over a holiday weekend, and he was able to pull it off in such a short span of time because the players bought in and did the work necessary to make the change. A good coach will get his players to buy in and do the work. A bad coach won't.

I agree with the posters who are pointing out the positioning issues and effort/passion issues. It's not that these players can't play faster, its just that the players aren't buying in to what RC is trying to make them do. This "speed" change thing isn't about skating faster (which we can't do). It's about moving the puck faster (which we can, but aren't). I don't know if RC has lost the dressing room or not, but they certainly look like a clown show on the ice. Everyone keeps banging on the defenders, but I think the forwards are where the problems lie the most. Our forwards look completely lost in all three zones, to the point where our defenders don't even now if they have puck support for breakout passes or whether they have help from back-checkers. Nobody trusts anyone out there on the ice right now to be in the right spot or to make the right play, and I don't know how you can look anywhere but right at the entire coaching staff for blame.

Great case in point with BB in the teams quick ((and effective)) change to the trap system. I think BB was able to implement systems that were effective seamlessly whether it be more offensive or more of a trap. He saw what he had as far as player personnel and worked with what he had. Problem with BB I think was that in the POs he was not the best in managing his bench and lines to counter the other teams strategic plays. This area is what I also think what may have gotten RC rehired but then at the same time RC still plays Perry and Getz like they are still in there 20s circa 2007 and overplays his vets. A coach who is more in between or a blend of RC and BB is what we need. But I have no idea who that could be. 

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1 hour ago, gorbachav5 said:

I'm not sold on Eakins as our next head coach due to his spotty record down in San Diego.  If I remember correctly, they got outshot pretty badly the last couple of seasons as well.  But I don't hold the Oilers stint against him.  That was a toxic environment where he was given none of the tools he needed to build a winning team.

I would hesitate to hold Eakins to the record he's put up in the past couple seasons, given that we've stolen most of his best players for long stretches.  The thing going for him is that the kids he works on and gives us generally seem ready.  Is Max the only rookie that hasn't had some time with Eakins?

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Alain Vigneault? He’s taken two different teams to the Finals, and Kesler knows him. As far as I know he is available. He's also a former defenseman, so he'd be right up BM's alley. And he's coached teams that play faster than what we have seen lately.

Edited by dtsdlaw
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1 hour ago, perry_mvp said:

He's an assistant coach for the Red Wings now.

He can always just quit? lol yeah, that's lame. I'm sure he'd prefer head coaching, too

19 minutes ago, dtsdlaw said:

Alain Vigneault? He’s taken two different teams to the Finals, and Kesler knows him. As far as I know he is available. He's also a former defenseman, so he'd be right up BM's alley. And he's coached teams that play faster than what we have seen lately.

That's definitely an interesting idea...hadn't thought of him.

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1 hour ago, perry_mvp said:

He's an assistant coach for the Red Wings now.

I came here to ask about Bylsma. Is there precedent for asking permission to talk to a coach mid-season? Because Bylsma is an assistant in Detroit. Also Lindy Ruff is an assistant for the Rangers. Both guys have a ton of head coach experience. Both guys have won the Jack Adams.

Honestly I'm so sick of Carlyle that a turd on a stick would probably be a better coach.

Edited by nieder
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