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Trevor Zegras

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36 minutes ago, BombaysTripleDeke said:

Pettersson also had played a full pro-season against men in Sweden prior to coming over and was on IR twice during his rookie season. He was undeniably NHL ready from a playing stand point (far more than Zegras is now) but maybe not physically. Last thing I want is for Zegras to get injured and potentially being more prone to being injured going forward because he's not physically ready for the NHL. Right now, I don't think that he is physically ready but when he is then the fun hopefully starts. I agree with you that a 2005 Pettersson would have gotten murdered. Last thing I want is for Zegras to get hurt like this:

 

Pettersson played his pro season in Sweden as an 18-year-old winger (not as a center) on a much bigger ice surface. https://theathletic.com/1298697/2019/10/17/inside-elias-petterssons-unprecedented-shift-to-centre-and-why-the-best-is-yet-to-come/

In terms of injuries and his size, if that's what you're worried about then he shouldn't have been playing with the Ducks at all. It's not more dangerous to play in space in the middle of the ice than it is to play in the corners as a winger. I would also argue that 10 minutes of E/S time at center in a sheltered role (i.e. mostly O-zone starts) might protect him more from injury than playing more minutes at the AHL level. I've been to plenty of Gulls games and frankly I think the minor leaguers are just as reckless if not more reckless than the NHLers.

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i guess i thought that by playing Z these past few games, they'd already gone past the number of games needed to burn the "extra" year off his contract?  Dry is the one that needs to play two more games to do so, correct?

let me say that more clearly: How many games total does Z need to play with the Ducks to burn the year?  Isn't it 10 games per (NHL CBA Article 9.1D)?  TZ has played 17 games at the NHL level this year.  And, I'm reading that it was prorated by a factor of 56/82, so... 

point being, there may not be contract manipulation with Z, and so this move is just what they say it is.  how am i incorrect?

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21 minutes ago, Fisix said:

i guess i thought that by playing Z these past few games, they'd already gone past the number of games needed to burn the "extra" year off his contract?  Dry is the one that needs to play two more games to do so, correct?

let me say that more clearly: How many games total does Z need to play with the Ducks to burn the year?  Isn't it 10 games per (NHL CBA Article 9.1D)?  TZ has played 17 games at the NHL level this year.  And, I'm reading that it was prorated by a factor of 56/82, so... 

point being, there may not be contract manipulation with Z, and so this move is just what they say it is.  how am i incorrect?

It's not about his ELC. It's about how many seasons he needs until he earns UFA rights. It's 7 accrued seasons or age 27 to become a UFA. An accrued season is 40 games in a normal season, but that number is pro-rated this season, and Zegras would have hit it if they had just let him play out the rest of this season rather than sitting him on 3/28 & 3/29. 

[Edit]: Also worth noting, Capfriendly says that Zegras is eligible for up to $850K in performance bonuses this season. Can't help but wonder if he's nearing some of those and the team is trying to nickel and dime him. They already withheld $$ from him when they sent him to the taxi squad on 3/28 & 3/29 instead of leaving him on the big club's roster and healthy scratching him. Pretty sure he gets paid his AHL salary when he's on the taxi squad. Not sure that's the kind of precedent you want to set with your future franchise player, eh?

Edited by dtsdlaw
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2 hours ago, dtsdlaw said:

Pettersson played his pro season in Sweden as an 18-year-old winger (not as a center) on a much bigger ice surface. https://theathletic.com/1298697/2019/10/17/inside-elias-petterssons-unprecedented-shift-to-centre-and-why-the-best-is-yet-to-come/

In terms of injuries and his size, if that's what you're worried about then he shouldn't have been playing with the Ducks at all. It's not more dangerous to play in space in the middle of the ice than it is to play in the corners as a winger. I would also argue that 10 minutes of E/S time at center in a sheltered role (i.e. mostly O-zone starts) might protect him more from injury than playing more minutes at the AHL level. I've been to plenty of Gulls games and frankly I think the minor leaguers are just as reckless if not more reckless than the NHLers.

I had no problem when the Ducks called him up since he had done everything that had been asked of him and earned his NHL debut. Having him be a full-time NHLer is a different ballgame to me, at least. There was always a concern about how he would fare against bigger, stronger, smarter NHL players and it was also unknown until we saw him go up against it. You hope that he impresses and is a star from day 1 or never has to be sent down again. His production has been fine but I think that is one area that Zegras has struggled in getting knocked to the ice and off pucks a bit too easily. That is to be expected and him working out the rest of his game in an unsheltered role when he hasn't played center in over a year with the Gulls isn't bad.

My bigger issue that I am concerned about is what you and Gorbachav brought up with the Ducks messing with his money, which is completely stupid imo. Since when has Murray cared about what will happen 6/7 years down the line and when he will likely be long gone as GM? He can't even commit to rebuild in shorter duration. Did the Samueli's give him a secret ten-year extension or something??

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The Angels renewed Mike Trout’s contract - this basically means, “here’s what you get, shut up and play” - and that didn’t stop him from signing two big extension with the Angels, the last of which happened despite the team missing the playoffs for most of his career. His agent came out publicly against the renewal too. 

If the GOD of baseball can suck it up, I’m sure Zegras can too.

Edited by Spencer_12

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6 hours ago, Spencer_12 said:

The Angels renewed Mike Trout’s contract - this basically means, “here’s what you get, shut up and play” - and that didn’t stop him from signing two big extension with the Angels, the last of which happened despite the team missing the playoffs for most of his career. His agent came out publicly against the renewal too. 

If the GOD of baseball can suck it up, I’m sure Zegras can too.

"Here's $426 million. Now shut up and play!" 

Yeah, I'm ok with saying shut up and play to Mike Trout in exchange for $426 million in guaranteed money. But I don't see how that relates to the Ducks paying Zegras his AHL salary ($70K) instead of his NHL salary ($925K) by sending him to the Gulls, which also potentially shorts him $850K in performance bonuses. I believe it would also significantly impact his total earnings if Zegras now suffers a career-ending injury while with the Gulls. Maybe someone can confirm, but my understanding is that a player on an ELC would be paid out only their AHL salary if they're injured while in the minors. It's that kind of exposure that would likely irk a player and his agent enough to make future negotiations less amicable. "Home town discount, you want? No thanks. How about you pay us back what you screwed us out of in 2021??" But we already know that Bob is one of the least popular GMs in the entire NHL among agents, so this isn't surprising.

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1 hour ago, dtsdlaw said:

"Here's $426 million. Now shut up and play!" 

Yeah, I'm ok with saying shut up and play to Mike Trout in exchange for $426 million in guaranteed money. But I don't see how that relates to the Ducks paying Zegras his AHL salary ($70K) instead of his NHL salary ($925K) by sending him to the Gulls, which also potentially shorts him $850K in performance bonuses. I believe it would also significantly impact his total earnings if Zegras now suffers a career-ending injury while with the Gulls. Maybe someone can confirm, but my understanding is that a player on an ELC would be paid out only their AHL salary if they're injured while in the minors. It's that kind of exposure that would likely irk a player and his agent enough to make future negotiations less amicable. "Home town discount, you want? No thanks. How about you pay us back what you screwed us out of in 2021??" But we already know that Bob is one of the least popular GMs in the entire NHL among agents, so this isn't surprising.

Is this normal with other teams, though? If every team in the NHL does the same thing then I'm not sure this would be an issue. The agent would be telling his client this would happen anywhere.

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57 minutes ago, nieder said:

Is this normal with other teams, though? If every team in the NHL does the same thing then I'm not sure this would be an issue. The agent would be telling his client this would happen anywhere.

Just quickly perusing the last several drafts, I'd say the answer is no it doesn't seem to happen on other teams when players show they can play at the NHL level in their first season of eligibility. This looks somewhat unique to the Ducks.

From Zegras' draft class especially - the one that had all those big name C prospects - Hughes, Dach, Cozens have not been sent down to the AHL at all (except for Dach's conditioning loan), and Turcotte has not been called up at all (which means they'll likely slide his ELC for this year). Zegras is the only guy who has been bounced back and forth while burning the first year of his ELC. Which means that he's also the only one of those guys who is losing NHL salary and likely a chance at his full performance bonus money from his first contract year when he gets sent down. So I don't think his agent can make him feel better about this when his direct peers (Hughes, Dach, Cozens, Turcotte) aren't experiencing it. Well, Turcotte doesn't get to accrue a season like the other three, but he's also not being bounced around and losing money on his current contract like Zegras is.

Edited by dtsdlaw
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5 hours ago, dtsdlaw said:

But we already know that Bob is one of the least popular GMs in the entire NHL among agents, so this isn't surprising.

which I think in turn probably makes him VERY popular with owners and the people who would hire/keep him hired... well, until a player decides to leave 'cause of something like that. But I'm starting to think the ducks organization has a bit of a good cop/bad cop thing going with the Samuellis and Bob respectively 

Edited by Jasoaks

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3 hours ago, gorbachav5 said:

I'm not an agent, so maybe you're right, but I could imagine a conversation going like this during RFA contract negotiations:

GM: "We'd like to sign Zegras long-term, buying out his four RFA years and three UFA years."

Agent: "My client is also interested in signing here, but the only reason there are four RFA years is because you sent him down to the minors his rookie season."

GM: "We were fully within our rights to do that."

Agent: "Of course you were.  As we are within our rights to negotiate as if he'd been justifiably on the NHL squad his rookie season rather than having his service time manipulated by you sending him to the AHL to save some money."

BM salary cap management 101

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thanks for clearing that up for me - the 40 game issue 40* 56/82 = 27.3 (maybe 28) games.

that said, i don't think this is as big an issue as you all seem to want to make it.  the Ducks played him enough that they didn't slide his first year, and they easily could have not played him that many games, so this non-slide, but less than 28, could easily have been the negotiated acceleration of his overall career of contracts.  i also don't think the salary difference is out of the ordinary for a player like him, at this point in his career.  you see nickel and diming him, i see normal development of someone who could be a dominate player for the team. 

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wanted to add - the way the games are being called since Peel got sat... i think it's a good idea to move Z back down while the hits get heavier.

i think the same thing will happen with Drys, just not sure when.  i think i read the 10 games is prorated in one circumstance, but not in another? so maybe they want to give him his 10 games and then they'll send him back down too.

i had thought Larsson was getting played as much as he was to be trade bait... but that strategy seems to have failed, or maybe the Seattle deal hasn't been formalized yet?  once a deal with Seattle is inked, if it is before the end of the season, then I'd expect the Ducks to sit the players being traded so they don't get injured.

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since Z wont be playing another game this season....does this mean he'll still be considered a rookie next season?

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4 minutes ago, gorbachav5 said:

Why won't he be playing another game this season?  Did I miss something?  I thought the plan was to get him a handful of games at center and then bring him back up.  Did he get hurt?

oh i thought the plan was to keep him down in the AHL the rest of the season.

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10 hours ago, Jasoaks said:

oh i thought the plan was to keep him down in the AHL the rest of the season.

Murray said he expects Z back with the Ducks before the end of the season. He'll be back when his total games played can"t exceed 26.

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22 minutes ago, dukitup said:

Murray said he expects Z back with the Ducks before the end of the season. He'll be back when his total games played can"t exceed 26.

got it! thanks!

so, does that mean he'll still be considered a rookie for next season?

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8 minutes ago, Jasoaks said:

got it! thanks!

so, does that mean he'll still be considered a rookie for next season?

For Calder purposes the limit is 25 games in a normal season. Wonder if that will be prorated this season too? Proration would be 17 games I think. Zegras has already played 17, so one more and he’s not Calder eligible next season.

Edited by dtsdlaw

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8 minutes ago, dtsdlaw said:

For Calder purposes the limit is 25 games in a normal season. Wonder if that will be prorated this season too? Proration would be 17 games I think. Zegras has already played 17, so one more and he’s not Calder eligible next season.

ahhh interesting. i mean, not that it matters 'cause we should obviously do what's best for his development...but it would have been nice to see if he could have had some calder talk next season... I mean, Kaprizov is far and away the winner this season haha

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5 minutes ago, gorbachav5 said:

I don't think they're prorating that limit.  I think it's still 25 games.

Hope you are right! It would be awesome if Zegras and Drysdale could both be in the Calder conversation next season.

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37 minutes ago, gorbachav5 said:

I don't think they're prorating that limit.  I think it's still 25 games.

Yeah I was thinking the same, wouldn't make any sense that he technically played more than 25 games. 25 is 25 last time I checked. 

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On 4/9/2021 at 9:45 AM, dtsdlaw said:

Hope you are right! It would be awesome if Zegras and Drysdale could both be in the Calder conversation next season.

I'd be very curious if Z would also find that more appealing and a silver-lining for being sent down right now. get a full 82-game season, more experience to compete for the Calder. And do it with Drysdale.

Next years calder trophy could be pretty competitive.... Z, Drysdale, Rossi, Holtz, Byram, Turcotte, Seider, Caufield, Sanderson...maybe Byfield, Raymond, Perfetti, and Lundel even?? Kayliev maybe? lol

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Zegras looked great at C in all the games against the Kings. Who knows if it would be different if he transitioned at the NHL level, but the conservative approach seems to have worked out so far. Contract benefits is a bonus. 

Edited by Spencer_12

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On 4/28/2021 at 2:23 PM, MooseDuck said:

It would NOT HURT IF our Ducks call up Z-man.

DuckPride 4ever

MooseDuck

Not yet, maybe 3-4 years from now. I have hard time imagining how 31 y/o Henrique, Silfverberg and Fowler would listen to 19 y/o

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2 minutes ago, FanSince1993 said:

Not yet, maybe 3-4 years from now. I have hard time imagining how 31 y/o Henrique, Silfverberg and Fowler would listen to 19 y/o

Well Who knows throw anything that will make it work....I am all for it with only 4 Games LEFT...LET'S GO.

DuckPride 4ever

MooseDuck

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I expect more from Z-man I expect him to do what is needed to improve the Ducks Offensive capablities simple as that.

DuckPride 4ever

MooseDuck

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