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Regarding the post about how the US has so many cases and deaths with such a great health care system not making sense. Keep in mind that people with diabetes are very affected by the complications. The US (I believe) is the world leader of obesity which goes one in hand with type 2 diabetes at least. There may be a correlation with that. 

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3 minutes ago, ike-1 said:

Regarding the post about how the US has so many cases and deaths with such a great health care system not making sense. Keep in mind that people with diabetes are very affected by the complications. The US (I believe) is the world leader of obesity which goes one in hand with type 2 diabetes at least. There may be a correlation with that. 

Sorry if I am not going to get involve...But when did Politics find itself on this Thread?.

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MooseDuck

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53 minutes ago, MooseDuck said:

Sorry if I am not going to get involve...But when did Politics find itself on this Thread?.

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MooseDuck

Well this specific thread has been about that for awhile now moose. It’s about the covid as it affects the league and although some of it has not been directly related to hockey the issue in itself is the reason why there is no hockey thus it is related.

also from I recall reading this isn’t so much politics as it is just world news.

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4 hours ago, MooseDuck said:

Sorry if I am not going to get involve...But when did Politics find itself on this Thread?.

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MooseDuck

Amen, Moose.

Looks like about a half dozen more players have now followed Hamonic out the door. Probably a few more coming tomorrow. I also can’t help but wonder if some of the coaches will opt out. It’s one thing to be a 20-something elite athlete at his physical peak, but there’s a handful of coaches that look like walking-talking pre-existing conditions. Like Trotz, Bowness, Julien... several of these coaches are over 60 and I’d have to imagine that high blood pressure is a given for this profession too. I’m actually more concerned for the coaches than I am the players. In fact, I’m suddenly loving that my guy Bruce Boudreau got fired earlier this season.
 

 

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12 hours ago, dtsdlaw said:

Amen, Moose.

Looks like about a half dozen more players have now followed Hamonic out the door. Probably a few more coming tomorrow. I also can’t help but wonder if some of the coaches will opt out. It’s one thing to be a 20-something elite athlete at his physical peak, but there’s a handful of coaches that look like walking-talking pre-existing conditions. Like Trotz, Bowness, Julien... several of these coaches are over 60 and I’d have to imagine that high blood pressure is a given for this profession too. I’m actually more concerned for the coaches than I am the players. In fact, I’m suddenly loving that my guy Bruce Boudreau got fired earlier this season.
 

 

Where is the list?? I couldn't even find it on NHL.com....Domi seems to be taking his time and allowed to I guess...so that's all I've seen.

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2 hours ago, Jasoaks said:

Where is the list?? I couldn't even find it on NHL.com....Domi seems to be taking his time and allowed to I guess...so that's all I've seen.

The Capfriendly twitter feed has a thread tracking the players who have opted out. So far its Hamonic (CAL), Kampfer (BOS), Green (EDM), Alzner (MTL), Baertschi (VAN), Polak (DAL), Trotman (PIT), and Goldobin (VAN) that are listed on their feed. Some of those guys wouldn't have played anyway.

Max Domi (who has diabetes) is an interesting one. I think he should sit, especially since Montreal has zero chance of winning anyway.

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1 hour ago, dtsdlaw said:

The Capfriendly twitter feed has a thread tracking the players who have opted out. So far its Hamonic (CAL), Kampfer (BOS), Green (EDM), Alzner (MTL), Baertschi (VAN), Polak (DAL), Trotman (PIT), and Goldobin (VAN) that are listed on their feed. Some of those guys wouldn't have played anyway.

Max Domi (who has diabetes) is an interesting one. I think he should sit, especially since Montreal has zero chance of winning anyway.

There is no shame in opting out...of this Tourney...No Shame in understanding and supporting all these players who opt out...It's understandable.

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the baseball players opting out sort of started the ball rolling.  then, so many NHL players testing positive since June (and the articles broadcasting that stat) sort of hit home with the more responsible older players, i think, when they realized their health and family time were now subject to a groups that includes AHL players and really young rooks, as well as other long time players with, perhaps, a bit more worldly self-restraint/resolve. 

it's just a guess, but once one professional league player declined, in the US, the bowl was tipped, and then the constant uptick in cases (and the reporting of same) started the dribble out of the bowl.  

what i don't know is how the owners feel about this.  it looks like they've minimized or at least quantified their losses by locking down almost all the venues, so there's not going to be risk involved in having staff working locally.  they're solely looking for television revenue to offset team salaries, and the team salaries are pretty much locked in regardless of play... except for bonuses i guess.  i suppose it stands to reason that they're pushing pretty hard at having games, and equally invested in players being safe with each other and the community.  they probably have a longer eye on this too, and don't want to risk players long term health (though a slight push back on that is that each player is going to just get older/out of their prime).  

it's sort of like you said, dtsdlaw, they saw Euro soccer and thought we could pull it off here with the NHL, and now players and probably more are getting cold feet, since it seems our society can't quite keep things going in the right direction.

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separate post on covid in socal:

like many of you, up until recently, i was pretty insulated from the direct effect of the disease.  i was at least 2 degrees away from anyone who tested positive, and deaths were pretty remote.  but, our office decided to open up in phases, which meant more than just three of us in the office on a regular basis (upped to about 10/day), and within 2 weeks we had an event (husband of office mate tested positive, office mate is now officially positive).  then, we had another event (another office mate is feeling symptoms, as is his family, no test results yet).

now, i've sort of been keeping tabs on this because we have someone in the family who would not survive covid.  i've read a ton of literature, as much of it curated by high profile epidemiologists as possible, and i've seen the disagreements they have with each other, and i've seen how those papers, disagreements, and the general understanding of the disease itself has evolved over the past 6 months (crazy that it's been this long, right?).

take this to the bank: there's solid evidence that the US (as a whole) is slightly (and not purposefully) UNDER-reporting covid deaths.  it's based on a comparison between deaths now, week over week, to average deaths over the past 3-5 years.  it's happening more in areas that are being hit hard by the disease, but it happens, AND it swamps the number of people dying because they aren't going to the emergency room out of fear of covid.

here's where the problem seems to be, in my view.
people don't seem to be really internalizing the idea that there's a variable delay of more than 2 weeks from a statistical increase in cases to a commensurate statistical increase in deaths.  a friend described it perfectly as the public having to touch the stove to see if it's hot, again and again, because they forget.  that 2 week delay increases and decreases based on how burdened the hospitals are.  moreover, the rate of deaths itself also increases and decreases based on how burdened the hospitals are.  and, personally, i believe the climate affects the death and hospitalization rates (the percentage of confirmed cases that evolve into hospitalization or eventually end in death), which reduces the overall numbers during summer.  the study i really like shows, preliminarily, that hospitalization and death rates (the severity of the infection) seem to be proportionally linked to the viral load the patient gets hit with when they're infected.  so, in addition to the above, stuff like wearing a mask and washing hands, while not perfect at blocking infection, can modulate the severity of the disease. 

the point is, the link between testing positive and severity of the disease is complex, and it's hard even for actual epidemiologists to predict what's going to happen when x number of people get infected.  what we know for sure is that when we were hit by covid initially, the death rates were high because of a bunch of factors.  NOW, a lot of us wear masks and wash hands, the hospitals know better how to treat moderate to severe cases (and they're learning more every day), and so the death rates have declined.  we just can't lose sight of the fact that all that stuff we're doing (or were doing) is what's keeping the death rates manageable.  the last few weeks seems to say we're losing that battle. 

just as an example of complexity in the system: people thought arizona would be pretty well off being hot and dry... and so arizona didn't institute restrictions.  but they forgot that when it gets REALLY hot and dry, like in summer, people congregate inside while the AC is on, and the cheapest AC is a swamp cooler... you get the idea.  

for whatever reason, people see those simple-to-understand concepts play out in the data and get... confused and angry and upset because the interplay of those inputs is just complex enough that those people's initial guess as to what's going on turns out wrong.  then, those emotions turn into distrust of the data, of science, of governments struggling with the same (mis)understandings... and more than just a few of those angry people lash out and post very wrong takes about the disease, the numbers, masks, you name it, and those takes get traction with other people that are just fed up with... let's call it claustrophobia of being basically housebound or masked without a lot of the emotional outlets we've all become accustomed to in order to blow off steam, including watching NHL teams play hockey.

where this is going: believe what you will, but take a second to evaluate your take on things in light of the above, accept that the death and case numbers are as accurate as they can be (and are not over-reported), and accept that the media is not going to be super helpful about specific measures you need to take to stay healthy and safe - at best they're going to try to repeat what they've been told by state and local admin (who are themselves translating from actual epidemiologists) without mangling it too much in the process.  recognize the slack in the system, and don't take it personal.

in other words, keep your expectations reasonably low, and keep yourself healthy and safe.  

https://covid19.torchinsight.com/dashboard.html?type=state&fbclid=IwAR0OOBhOIy2OCdco-78uQsYn3niz8nzLH_9wDJwW5ESV5Tg9z-ozKlQHIXk

https://rt.live/

https://aatishb.com/covidtrends/?data=deaths&region=US

https://covidly.com/?country=United States&showStates=1

for fun:

 

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1 hour ago, Fisix said:

separate post on covid in socal:

like many of you, up until recently, i was pretty insulated from the direct effect of the disease.  i was at least 2 degrees away from anyone who tested positive, and deaths were pretty remote.  but, our office decided to open up in phases, which meant more than just three of us in the office on a regular basis (upped to about 10/day), and within 2 weeks we had an event (husband of office mate tested positive, office mate is now officially positive).  then, we had another event (another office mate is feeling symptoms, as is his family, no test results yet).

now, i've sort of been keeping tabs on this because we have someone in the family who would not survive covid.  i've read a ton of literature, as much of it curated by high profile epidemiologists as possible, and i've seen the disagreements they have with each other, and i've seen how those papers, disagreements, and the general understanding of the disease itself has evolved over the past 6 months (crazy that it's been this long, right?).

take this to the bank: there's solid evidence that the US (as a whole) is slightly (and not purposefully) UNDER-reporting covid deaths.  it's based on a comparison between deaths now, week over week, to average deaths over the past 3-5 years.  it's happening more in areas that are being hit hard by the disease, but it happens, AND it swamps the number of people dying because they aren't going to the emergency room out of fear of covid.

here's where the problem seems to be, in my view.
people don't seem to be really internalizing the idea that there's a variable delay of more than 2 weeks from a statistical increase in cases to a commensurate statistical increase in deaths.  a friend described it perfectly as the public having to touch the stove to see if it's hot, again and again, because they forget.  that 2 week delay increases and decreases based on how burdened the hospitals are.  moreover, the rate of deaths itself also increases and decreases based on how burdened the hospitals are.  and, personally, i believe the climate affects the death and hospitalization rates (the percentage of confirmed cases that evolve into hospitalization or eventually end in death), which reduces the overall numbers during summer.  the study i really like shows, preliminarily, that hospitalization and death rates (the severity of the infection) seem to be proportionally linked to the viral load the patient gets hit with when they're infected.  so, in addition to the above, stuff like wearing a mask and washing hands, while not perfect at blocking infection, can modulate the severity of the disease. 

the point is, the link between testing positive and severity of the disease is complex, and it's hard even for actual epidemiologists to predict what's going to happen when x number of people get infected.  what we know for sure is that when we were hit by covid initially, the death rates were high because of a bunch of factors.  NOW, a lot of us wear masks and wash hands, the hospitals know better how to treat moderate to severe cases (and they're learning more every day), and so the death rates have declined.  we just can't lose sight of the fact that all that stuff we're doing (or were doing) is what's keeping the death rates manageable.  the last few weeks seems to say we're losing that battle. 

just as an example of complexity in the system: people thought arizona would be pretty well off being hot and dry... and so arizona didn't institute restrictions.  but they forgot that when it gets REALLY hot and dry, like in summer, people congregate inside while the AC is on, and the cheapest AC is a swamp cooler... you get the idea.  

for whatever reason, people see those simple-to-understand concepts play out in the data and get... confused and angry and upset because the interplay of those inputs is just complex enough that those people's initial guess as to what's going on turns out wrong.  then, those emotions turn into distrust of the data, of science, of governments struggling with the same (mis)understandings... and more than just a few of those angry people lash out and post very wrong takes about the disease, the numbers, masks, you name it, and those takes get traction with other people that are just fed up with... let's call it claustrophobia of being basically housebound or masked without a lot of the emotional outlets we've all become accustomed to in order to blow off steam, including watching NHL teams play hockey.

where this is going: believe what you will, but take a second to evaluate your take on things in light of the above, accept that the death and case numbers are as accurate as they can be (and are not over-reported), and accept that the media is not going to be super helpful about specific measures you need to take to stay healthy and safe - at best they're going to try to repeat what they've been told by state and local admin (who are themselves translating from actual epidemiologists) without mangling it too much in the process.  recognize the slack in the system, and don't take it personal.

in other words, keep your expectations reasonably low, and keep yourself healthy and safe.  

https://covid19.torchinsight.com/dashboard.html?type=state&fbclid=IwAR0OOBhOIy2OCdco-78uQsYn3niz8nzLH_9wDJwW5ESV5Tg9z-ozKlQHIXk

https://rt.live/

https://aatishb.com/covidtrends/?data=deaths&region=US

https://covidly.com/?country=United States&showStates=1

for fun:

 

What Happen to your Country is NOT YOUR Fault or the People.....I know you have dealt with my passion for the Ducks....What I can say is My heart is with you and all Ducks Fans in all of Orange County California and America...I urge  All Ducks Fans including you and friends and Family Not to give up Hope....and never give in to fear,shame,hate and doubt...IF  HOCKEY TEAM such as ours can come together and Win the Stanley Cup and Defy the Odds. Coming together is necessary and I know I hate saying this and getting involve in Affairs of a Country and County I admire...But Please Don't GIVE UP HOPE....UNITY is your Strength and you can get through THIS.

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MooseDuck

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Thanks Moose, well received.

here's a thread about how actual epidemiologists can disagree and the media can get stuff wrong... but still publish.

 

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16 hours ago, Fisix said:

Thanks Moose, well received.

here's a thread about how actual epidemiologists can disagree and the media can get stuff wrong... but still publish.

 

No problem always happy to use my words to help reachout.

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MooseDuck

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On 7/13/2020 at 2:31 PM, Fisix said:

the baseball players opting out sort of started the ball rolling.  then, so many NHL players testing positive since June (and the articles broadcasting that stat) sort of hit home with the more responsible older players, i think, when they realized their health and family time were now subject to a groups that includes AHL players and really young rooks, as well as other long time players with, perhaps, a bit more worldly self-restraint/resolve. 

it's just a guess, but once one professional league player declined, in the US, the bowl was tipped, and then the constant uptick in cases (and the reporting of same) started the dribble out of the bowl.  

what i don't know is how the owners feel about this.  it looks like they've minimized or at least quantified their losses by locking down almost all the venues, so there's not going to be risk involved in having staff working locally.  they're solely looking for television revenue to offset team salaries, and the team salaries are pretty much locked in regardless of play... except for bonuses i guess.  i suppose it stands to reason that they're pushing pretty hard at having games, and equally invested in players being safe with each other and the community.  they probably have a longer eye on this too, and don't want to risk players long term health (though a slight push back on that is that each player is going to just get older/out of their prime).  

it's sort of like you said, dtsdlaw, they saw Euro soccer and thought we could pull it off here with the NHL, and now players and probably more are getting cold feet, since it seems our society can't quite keep things going in the right direction.

I beg the differ sir, Baseball is NOT  a sport curling on the radio is more exciting than baseball do not mix it with hockey. 

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2 hours ago, Joker8 said:

I beg the differ sir, Baseball is NOT  a sport curling on the radio is more exciting than baseball do not mix it with hockey. 

Clearly when it comes to Sports of two kinds or more...they can equally exist...example is of course Ducks and Angels in Anaheim,Jokerit and HJK(soccer) in Helsinki....San Diego Gulls and Padres in San Diego....Halifax Mooseheads and Halifax Wanderers...Soccer. Just want to show that even though two sports don't mix...They can co-exist.

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Today's NHL Statement on COVID-19 testing: https://www.nhl.com/news/nhl-statement-on-coronavirus-testing-results/c-317644904

Quote

NEW YORK -- The National Hockey League today released the following statement on COVID-19 testing results:

The NHL concluded Phase 3 (formal training camp) of its Return to Play on Saturday with no positive test results for COVID-19 among the 4,256 tests administered to more than 800 Players during the period from July 18-25. During the two-week period of Phase 3 there were a total of two positive tests (both occurred during the period from July 13-17) among the 6,874 total tests. All 24 teams entered the secure zone in Edmonton and Toronto yesterday for the beginning of Phase 4 and each of the 52 members of the 24 teams (Players and Club staff) will be tested on a daily basis. The NHL will continue to provide regular updates on the number of tests administered to Players and the results of those tests. The League will not be providing information on the identity of the Players or Clubs.

Game on.

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20 hours ago, Joker8 said:

I beg the differ sir, Baseball is NOT  a sport curling on the radio is more exciting than baseball do not mix it with hockey. 

Baseball and hockey are both wonderful sports.

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6 hours ago, gorbachav5 said:

Baseball and hockey are both wonderful sports.

I love hockey and baseball, hate football as I find it boring (both American and Soccer). To each their own.

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6 hours ago, gorbachav5 said:

Baseball and hockey are both wonderful sports.

It is true...which why Gorby not long ago I adopted Angels as my Major League team.

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Just hard to imagine with how this pandemic is progressing that the next NHL season can complete 82 games...especially if there is not an isolated bubble like there is now!

 

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On 7/27/2020 at 3:54 PM, gorbachav5 said:

Baseball and hockey are both wonderful sports.

They are wonderful in their own unique way also for us Ducks Hockey Fans it does not hurt to love both sports.

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9 minutes ago, HockeyIzCool said:

Tuukka Rask Opts Out of the Playoffs for Boston.

What's up with these Bruins goalies???? First Tim Thomas wants to terminate his contract so he can "focus on family" ...no Rask is jumping out of the bubble to "be with family." psh...where are their priorities?!

/sarcasm :P 

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5 hours ago, Jasoaks said:

What's up with these Bruins goalies???? First Tim Thomas wants to terminate his contract so he can "focus on family" ...no Rask is jumping out of the bubble to "be with family." psh...where are their priorities?!

/sarcasm :P 

Can't blame him....Also Just wondering if there was more then we are reading into this.

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yeah.  i sort of wonder if Rask saw some people breaking the bubble and was just, naw.

but, he's won so much, maybe the calculus just ended up being not quite enough this time.

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57 minutes ago, Fisix said:

yeah.  i sort of wonder if Rask saw some people breaking the bubble and was just, naw.

but, he's won so much, maybe the calculus just ended up being not quite enough this time.

Makes me wonder.....if being with his family was just one of the reasons.

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8 minutes ago, MooseDuck said:

Makes me wonder.....if being with his family was just one of the reasons.

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MooseDuck

eh, I don't really like to try to read into things that may or may not be there. take him for his word until something happens that seems suspicious. He was talking earlier about how the games felt like scrimmages and didn't like the atmosphere...could be he just didn't feel into it and didn't want to pretend he did and felt he would hurt his team more by being there but not into it. And then add in the family thing...I don't think it's out of the question he just felt his priorities needed to be somewhere else.

1 hour ago, Fisix said:

yeah.  i sort of wonder if Rask saw some people breaking the bubble and was just, naw.

but, he's won so much, maybe the calculus just ended up being not quite enough this time.

Oh god I hope that's not happening lol like besides the ones that are public...like i really hope no player is like...sneakily leaving and coming back......

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2 minutes ago, Jasoaks said:

eh, I don't really like to try to read into things that may or may not be there. take him for his word until something happens that seems suspicious. He was talking earlier about how the games felt like scrimmages and didn't like the atmosphere...could be he just didn't feel into it and didn't want to pretend he did and felt he would hurt his team more by being there but not into it. And then add in the family thing...I don't think it's out of the question he just felt his priorities needed to be somewhere else.

Oh god I hope that's not happening lol like besides the ones that are public...like i really hope no player is like...sneakily leaving and coming back......

Good Point...I imagine he is probably not the one to feel games are like scrimmages....Hockey like other team sports are feed off fans....Talking to some I know who are into KBO Baseball. Apparently some Baseball Players feel unnerved by having no fans back when Pandemic was crazy.

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3 hours ago, Jasoaks said:

eh, I don't really like to try to read into things that may or may not be there. take him for his word until something happens that seems suspicious. He was talking earlier about how the games felt like scrimmages and didn't like the atmosphere...could be he just didn't feel into it and didn't want to pretend he did and felt he would hurt his team more by being there but not into it. And then add in the family thing...I don't think it's out of the question he just felt his priorities needed to be somewhere else.

Oh god I hope that's not happening lol like besides the ones that are public...like i really hope no player is like...sneakily leaving and coming back......

I know the Bruins are in Toronto but let me tell you, if any of the players were going outside the bubble in Edmonton you would have heard about it by now. Edmonton gossip travels faster than the speed of light.

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13 hours ago, nieder said:

I know the Bruins are in Toronto but let me tell you, if any of the players were going outside the bubble in Edmonton you would have heard about it by now. Edmonton gossip travels faster than the speed of light.

hope so, but you know most players wouldn't be comfortable ratting out another player - whether them sneaking out, or sneaking in family.

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21 hours ago, nieder said:

I know the Bruins are in Toronto but let me tell you, if any of the players were going outside the bubble in Edmonton you would have heard about it by now. Edmonton gossip travels faster than the speed of light.

Well Edm is sports town...and Hockey made city...like St John's.

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