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ChopSuey

Seems we are stuck with Bob

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19 hours ago, FanSince1993 said:

I am sure if Bob was a manager back then, he would not trade Tverdovsky - he would treat him like he treats Cam Fowler - our untouchable "franchise player", creative defenseman, how can I trade second-overall pick, bla, bla, bla.....Jack Ferreira had guts to do it, something Bob does not have.

Also, if memory serves me right, at the time of this trade Selanne had like 3 years remaining on his contract at very reasonable $2.75 mil per season. It was a steal for this team, perhaps the best trade in Ducks history. Selanne turned out to be a Hall of Fame member, Tverdovsky was bounced from team to team before he end up playing in Europe, and Chad Kilger? I never even heard of him since he got traded. 

Everyone lost Track of him.....I imagine he went over to Europe to play after Selanne Trade. I read he and Oleg were not recieve well when the Trade Happen.

DuckPride

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i still dislike Hagelin for how badly that trade ended up... i never saw him make an effort, even when he wasn't injured (which he was the vast majority of the time he was a Duck).  

i think there was a legitimate strategy to the Palmieri trade at the time, and i don't think many quibbled with it then.  i think we expected Palmieri to demand a large raise, and i think we thought we had a decent replacement in line (was it RR?).  Palmieri has looked so strong since then that it's difficult to imagine him not being a stellar player here if he remained.  getting Perron wasn't a mistake, and McGinn got injured late in the season and didn't recover in the postseason... more bad luck (or whatever causes the Ducks to get injured more often) than poor GMing.

we made a lot of decisions then, vying for the cup window, that we wouldn't have made otherwise, and certainly not now, nor in hindsight.  i really think all you need in your anti-BM arsenal is hiring RC a second time (though per player request) AND sticking with RC for far too long.  i think that, more than anything, represents a horrible abdication of young player development at the worst possible time for the Ducks organization.  a better GM wouldn't have allowed that to go down that way.

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7 hours ago, gorbachav5 said:

Of course they would nominate him - he kept the other GMs happy.

Those picks he acquired were later traded away (the teams who used them picked players who never played in the NHL).  The picks were used to help acquire Carl Hagelin, who was a complete bust in Anaheim before being traded for David Perron, and Jamie McGinn at the trade deadline a year later, who was okay in the regular season but a bust in the playoffs.  Palmieri (who only had one year left on his contract, but was an RFA, so the Ducks still controlled his rights) put up 57 points that next season and 154 total points over the three years of control the Ducks had left.  It's being generous, but let's give the Ducks all the points put up by Hagelin, Perron, and McGinn in a Ducks uniform: 92 games, 44 points.  Palmieri had more goals and points in one season than the Ducks got out of all the guys who eventually came of those picks they got for him.  And they controlled his rights for two more seasons.  It was a dumb trade at the time (although I think I may have stupidly tried to defend it), but it's even dumber in hindsight.

Palmieri scored 154 points after he left but would he have done the same if he had stuck around. I always felt he didn't make the most of it in Anaheim. And we've seen players leaving here and putting up more points elsewhere countless times. (That's something to think about.) I don't remember our situation back then. BM said something along the lines of we can't keep him anyway so I have to move him. That may not have been the best strategy but valuewise I think BM did okay.

Having said this it's time to move on from him.

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9 hours ago, DucksFan_08 said:

Palmieri scored 154 points after he left but would he have done the same if he had stuck around. I always felt he didn't make the most of it in Anaheim. And we've seen players leaving here and putting up more points elsewhere countless times. (That's something to think about.) I don't remember our situation back then. BM said something along the lines of we can't keep him anyway so I have to move him. That may not have been the best strategy but valuewise I think BM did okay.

Having said this it's time to move on from him.

This is my thought too....Palms really took off in NJ but I have to wonder if he would have done the same in Anaheim, he was given ample opportunities but it seemed like he would never really be a high scorer. Maybe he just needed a change of scenery, and maybe not be stuck behind Corey Perry for ice time.

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14 hours ago, Fisix said:

i think there was a legitimate strategy to the Palmieri trade at the time, and i don't think many quibbled with it then.  i think we expected Palmieri to demand a large raise, and i think we thought we had a decent replacement in line (was it RR?).  Palmieri has looked so strong since then that it's difficult to imagine him not being a stellar player here if he remained.  getting Perron wasn't a mistake, and McGinn got injured late in the season and didn't recover in the postseason... more bad luck (or whatever causes the Ducks to get injured more often) than poor GMing.

Yeah there's a lot to criticise Murray about but I don't think adding Perron and McGinn were part of his list of mistakes. Both were pretty good deadline pick ups for a contending team, too bad it just didn't work out.

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14 hours ago, Fisix said:

i still dislike Hagelin for how badly that trade ended up... i never saw him make an effort, even when he wasn't injured (which he was the vast majority of the time he was a Duck).  

i think there was a legitimate strategy to the Palmieri trade at the time, and i don't think many quibbled with it then.  i think we expected Palmieri to demand a large raise, and i think we thought we had a decent replacement in line (was it RR?).  Palmieri has looked so strong since then that it's difficult to imagine him not being a stellar player here if he remained.  getting Perron wasn't a mistake, and McGinn got injured late in the season and didn't recover in the postseason... more bad luck (or whatever causes the Ducks to get injured more often) than poor GMing.

Yes, that was about it.  RP got $4.5M and Rakell did well in his spot.  Hagelin had a bad time with the Ducks, but isn't a bad player, as we hear his name all over the playoffs.  He scored 27 points in his first 37 games with the Pens.

We used one pick to get Hagelin, but got two along with him in exchange for Etem of all people, so netted an extra pick out of it.  

The Palmieri trade was definitely due to room on the roster and room under the cap.  And to get a 2nd and 3rd for him based on his performance to that point was an excellent exchange.  

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14 minutes ago, gorbachav5 said:

Neither Perron nor McGinn was a mistake.  But you could argue that neither one would have been necessary if Palmieri had still been here.

Ducks should have NOT traded Palms.

DuckPride 4ever

MooseDuck

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29 minutes ago, nieder said:

This is my thought too....Palms really took off in NJ but I have to wonder if he would have done the same in Anaheim, he was given ample opportunities but it seemed like he would never really be a high scorer. Maybe he just needed a change of scenery, and maybe not be stuck behind Corey Perry for ice time.

100% the bolded. With Getzlaf-Perry stapled to each other and the Cogs-Kes-Silf line dominating as the 2nd line, Palms was either relegated to 3rd line duties (where he never really got to play with an effective center) or shuffled around on his off wing when they were trying to shake up the top line's LW rotation of Beleskey and Maroon. I don't think he really got as chance to show what he could do given the depth we had at the time. He was just kind of the odd man out of the top-6 of that line up. Ironically though, about two minutes after Bob traded Palmieri, he and Boudreau decided that splitting the Twins was going to be the strategy for the 2015-16 season, so we got Perry on Rakell's RW and freaking Chris Stewart on Getzlaf's RW instead of Palmieri to start the season.  <_<

I can't criticize GMBM for the Palmieri trade on its own, but I do think he deserves a lot of criticism for over-reacting to the WCF game 7 loss and trying to remake the team to match Chicago's speed. Our 2015 playoff team was really good and deserved another chance to make a run at it before doing a make-over. There were too many changes that just didn't need to happen. 

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22 hours ago, dtsdlaw said:

100% the bolded. With Getzlaf-Perry stapled to each other and the Cogs-Kes-Silf line dominating as the 2nd line, Palms was either relegated to 3rd line duties (where he never really got to play with an effective center) or shuffled around on his off wing when they were trying to shake up the top line's LW rotation of Beleskey and Maroon. I don't think he really got as chance to show what he could do given the depth we had at the time. He was just kind of the odd man out of the top-6 of that line up. Ironically though, about two minutes after Bob traded Palmieri, he and Boudreau decided that splitting the Twins was going to be the strategy for the 2015-16 season, so we got Perry on Rakell's RW and freaking Chris Stewart on Getzlaf's RW instead of Palmieri to start the season.  <_<

I can't criticize GMBM for the Palmieri trade on its own, but I do think he deserves a lot of criticism for over-reacting to the WCF game 7 loss and trying to remake the team to match Chicago's speed. Our 2015 playoff team was really good and deserved another chance to make a run at it before doing a make-over. There were too many changes that just didn't need to happen. 

I always had feeling Bob's overreaction afte Game 7 4 year Loss was feeling the heat from the Ducks Owners at that point.

DuckPride 4ever

MooseDuck

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On 5/17/2021 at 3:22 PM, MooseDuck said:

Everyone lost Track of him.....I imagine he went over to Europe to play after Selanne Trade. I read he and Oleg were not recieve well when the Trade Happen.

DuckPride

Looked it up.  Seemed ot have an interesting journey and was in the NHL the entire time.

Odd thing is that he looked to be having his best season in Toronto, then no-showed after a trade to Florida and just hung it up.  Quit while you're ahead, I guess!

Chad Kilger - Wikipedia

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2 hours ago, gotchabari said:

Looked it up.  Seemed ot have an interesting journey and was in the NHL the entire time.

Odd thing is that he looked to be having his best season in Toronto, then no-showed after a trade to Florida and just hung it up.  Quit while you're ahead, I guess!

Chad Kilger - Wikipedia

So he became Journeymen Forward...At least he finish his career in his home province.

DuckPride 4ever

MooseDuck

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Its being reported on Twitter than the Kings' EVP of Hockey Ops Jeff Solomon is coming to Anaheim to be the VP of Hockey Operations and Assistant GM. If true, that "Assistant GM" title is an interesting one, since Nonis and Madden already have that title. Is there going to be a shake-up? Surely they can't have THREE Assistant GMs, right?

edit: It's also interesting to bring in the guy who was in charge of the Kings Cap, since the Kings operated at/near/above the cap for a few years there during their run of success. I find it interesting because the Ducks are heading into an offseason where they'll be LOADED with cap space. Is Solomon coming on board because they're going to get closer to the cap ceiling with some big moves? Seems like an odd lateral move for Solomon if the Ducks are just planning to continue the rebuild and plan to stay $9M+ below the cap (basically where they are now) for the foreseeable future.

Edited by dtsdlaw

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1 hour ago, dtsdlaw said:

Its being reported on Twitter than the Kings' EVP of Hockey Ops Jeff Solomon is coming to Anaheim to be the VP of Hockey Operations and Assistant GM. If true, that "Assistant GM" title is an interesting one, since Nonis and Madden already have that title. Is there going to be a shake-up? Surely they can't have THREE Assistant GMs, right?

edit: It's also interesting to bring in the guy who was in charge of the Kings Cap, since the Kings operated at/near/above the cap for a few years there during their run of success. I find it interesting because the Ducks are heading into an offseason where they'll be LOADED with cap space. Is Solomon coming on board because they're going to get closer to the cap ceiling with some big moves? Seems like an odd lateral move for Solomon if the Ducks are just planning to continue the rebuild and plan to stay $9M+ below the cap (basically where they are now) for the foreseeable future.

Well McNabb retired so it’s just Nonis and Solomon. Still odd. Is it normal; do other teams have two assistants? I didn’t even know Nonis was still around.

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Im pretty sure he has been around since Brian Burke days.  Then you have to ask why did we also had Darryl Sutter until he took the Calgary coaching job?   All this top tier management doesnt come cheap.   Face it Murray is as incompetent as they come.

 

 

Edited by ChopSuey

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56 minutes ago, ike8228 said:

Well McNabb retired so it’s just Nonis and Solomon. Still odd. Is it normal; do other teams have two assistants? I didn’t even know Nonis was still around.

Martin Madden was also given an Assistant GM promotion: https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/ducks-name-martin-madden-assistant-general-manager/ and Madden and Nonis are both listed on the website as Assistant GMs: https://www.nhl.com/ducks/team/staff-directory. A quick spin around the league indicates that several teams have multiple assistant GMs and also guys listed as a Special Advisor to the GM. So maybe its more common than I think. Then again, McNabb didn't have the Assistant GM title...

 

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Eric Stephens reporting in the Athletic re Solomon: "In addition to being the lead when it comes to managing the Ducks' cap and budget, he'll also handle contract and arbitration negotiations. Those and the CBA were among his duties with L.A."

Interesting note about handling arbitration negotiations. A couple of guys speculated to be on the trade block who are RFAs and are arbitration eligible: Laine and Reinhart.

Edited by dtsdlaw
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Save us God from Dave Nonis as a GM. The amount of damage he did to Vancouver and Toronto, I won't be surprised if some fans still  cursing his name 15 years after his tenure. Don't know much about Solomon and Madden.

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I do wonder how much of this is Murray or pressure being put on Murray. Frankly he should be gone, but his contract is up after next season. 

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19 minutes ago, Sexlaf15 said:

I do wonder how much of this is Murray or pressure being put on Murray. Frankly he should be gone, but his contract is up after next season. 

I imagine it's ALOT considering he has messed up and from the looks of it...having triad of Ducks Assistant GM's makes me wonder after hearing this announcement...btw Welcome to the Ducks Jeff Solomon.

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MooseDuck

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Honestly, as someone who really doesn't understand all the inner workings of all of this side...it just seems like Bob getting ready to step down (probably some time after free agency, but before the season starts). And that move also probably means he's not getting fired...

A change is good. I think Bob has done a lot of very good things for this organization but his decisions have increasingly been head scratchers lately.

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This is just a replacement for McNabb who retired. He seems to be tasked with all the roles McNabb did. It seems like a lateral move for him, but maybe also getting the assistant GM title was valuable to him. Perhaps he has eyes on becoming a GM someday and thinks this could help him. 

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1 hour ago, dtsdlaw said:

Eric Stephens reporting in the Athletic re Solomon: "In addition to being the lead when it comes to managing the Ducks' cap and budget, he'll also handle contract and arbitration negotiations. Those and the CBA were among his duties with L.A."

Interesting note about handling arbitration negotiations. A couple of guys speculated to be on the trade block who are RFAs and are arbitration eligible: Laine and Reinhart.

Too funny just read this article.  Back in the late 90's early 2000s they guy behind us that had season seats was good friends with "Solly" and we were introduced to him and saw him at several Ducks games over the years.  He was never a big fan of the Ducks organization back then but then again it was Disney owned...understandable.

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i think the better questions is:  why are the kings allowing Solomon to go, and who is replacing his position at the Kings? 

knowing us, Solomon might have been an inexpensive (no relocation bonus) replacement for our outgoing VP.  the sweetener might have been naming him AGM so that he's at least considered for the GM position.  considering how badly it would play if he wasn't actually being considered, i think we may be looking at someone who will be on the short list for interim GM when BM retires (i'm on the record predicting that it'll happen after the regular season starts up, as part of a play to give Eakins a fair shot at a regular season start under normal conditions and with a better and more focused group of players).

or, maybe the Ducks org just likes to have executives named as "assistant" GMs so that it's clearer that they are under BM while he's around.  that makes a little more sense to me, especially considering some of the power struggles that've occurred in SoCal sports franchises - you react to what you see around you.

in any event, do we know why the kings are allowing Solomon to go, and do we know who is replacing him in the kings org?

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1 hour ago, Fisix said:

i think the better questions is:  why are the kings allowing Solomon to go, and who is replacing his position at the Kings? 

knowing us, Solomon might have been an inexpensive (no relocation bonus) replacement for our outgoing VP.  the sweetener might have been naming him AGM so that he's at least considered for the GM position.  considering how badly it would play if he wasn't actually being considered, i think we may be looking at someone who will be on the short list for interim GM when BM retires (i'm on the record predicting that it'll happen after the regular season starts up, as part of a play to give Eakins a fair shot at a regular season start under normal conditions and with a better and more focused group of players).

or, maybe the Ducks org just likes to have executives named as "assistant" GMs so that it's clearer that they are under BM while he's around.  that makes a little more sense to me, especially considering some of the power struggles that've occurred in SoCal sports franchises - you react to what you see around you.

in any event, do we know why the kings are allowing Solomon to go, and do we know who is replacing him in the kings org?

That is Good Question.

DuckPride 4ever

MooseDuck

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18 hours ago, Fisix said:

i think the better questions is:  why are the kings allowing Solomon to go, and who is replacing his position at the Kings? 

knowing us, Solomon might have been an inexpensive (no relocation bonus) replacement for our outgoing VP.  the sweetener might have been naming him AGM so that he's at least considered for the GM position.  considering how badly it would play if he wasn't actually being considered, i think we may be looking at someone who will be on the short list for interim GM when BM retires (i'm on the record predicting that it'll happen after the regular season starts up, as part of a play to give Eakins a fair shot at a regular season start under normal conditions and with a better and more focused group of players).

or, maybe the Ducks org just likes to have executives named as "assistant" GMs so that it's clearer that they are under BM while he's around.  that makes a little more sense to me, especially considering some of the power struggles that've occurred in SoCal sports franchises - you react to what you see around you.

in any event, do we know why the kings are allowing Solomon to go, and do we know who is replacing him in the kings org?

Soloman asked to leave and the Kings agreed to mutually part ways. Sounds like Soloman wanted more responsibility and autonomy than what the Kings were willing to give him, so while it initially looked like a lateral move it actually is probably a significant step-up for him to be joining the Ducks.

I'm also reading that Solomon is big on analytics and was a major influencer on the Kings development of an analytics department. Kind of makes you wonder if this was indeed a Bob Murray hire, or if Solomon was brought in by someone higher in the chain of command. After giving out bloated contracts to Rico and Silfverberg, I don't think we can rule out the idea that this hire is coming from higher up - like maybe an owner who wants to see his millions spent a little more wisely?

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2 hours ago, gorbachav5 said:

After reading that Stephens piece on Solomon, I'm encouraged by this hire, but I also have a lot of questions.

First, this does look like a departure for the Ducks from their normal, insular hiring practices.  Solomon's history with analytics is a huge selling point for me, and if all he does for the Ducks is completely renovate their analytics department, I'll be a happy man.  That seems to be an area where they've been severely lacking.

But this does look like it might be more than just putting him in charge of analytics, since that would be a lateral move at best.  I thought at first this might be a precursor to making Solomon the GM - hire him to assist Murray this season, then kick Murray further upstairs next season and make Solomon the GM.  However, Solomon is already 63.  It sounds like he's still fully invested in his career, but surely he's been making decent money as an executive for a while - how long will he want to stay in the business?  If I'm the Samuelis, I'd want to hire someone likely to stay longer.

How will he coexist with Madden and Nonis?  Plenty of speculation is out there that Madden is the GM in waiting - does this change that?  How soon will Solomon have the authority to fire Nonis?  Is it tomorrow?  Can that happen now, please?

Overall, this seems like a great hire.  I just don't know what it means or where it's going to lead.  But I am encouraged.

I was actually thinking the opposite. GMBM is so entrenched in upper management that it's now very hard to move on from him. Perhaps a hire with a shorter shelf life is just what this organization needs to revitalize itself. 

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1 hour ago, gorbachav5 said:

What evidence do we have that the Samuelis think that way, though?  If we grant your premise, that still leaves us with ownership who has very, very rarely shown an inclination to hire short-term solutions.  This would be a significant departure from their modus operandi.  

The organization needs change, that much is obvious.  And if their solution is to bring someone in for a few years to get the ship turned around, I'm not opposed as long as they nail the hire.  But I would much rather see them hire someone who is a long-term builder.  Hire someone who will build the scouting department and the analytics department and the player development department.  Maybe that person is in the president role, rather than the GM, but either way, I envision that person having a long-term plan that requires more than a couple years at the helm.  Of course that involves risk - if you're giving someone from outside the organization the reins to do a long-term project, you'd better get it right, otherwise you're stuck and you have to re-do the whole thing in three to five years (see Sabres, Buffalo).  Maybe the Samuelis aren't interested in that kind of commitment.  But they seem to like people who stick around for a while.

I don't know.  Until this hire, I was feeling pretty sure that Bob Murray was going to get a different cushy front office job and that Madden would step into the GM role after next season.  This shakes that up a little bit, which does make me happy.  Not that I dislike Madden, but we have no idea what kind of GM he'll be.  We only know that he's been decent at running the amateur scouting department.  And this organization could use some new blood.

I agree with most of what you have said except, Just because someone is an excellent scout doesnt assure they can negotiate trades and contracts (approval of the asst GMs plans) or carry the business aspects of the GM Role (See Murray, Bob)

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1 hour ago, ChopSuey said:

I agree with most of what you have said except, Just because someone is an excellent scout doesnt assure they can negotiate trades and contracts (approval of the asst GMs plans) or carry the business aspects of the GM Role (See Murray, Bob)

Good Point...It's Tough to find Sucessor in NHL,MLB and all sports in general.

DuckPride 4ever

MooseDuck

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don't overthink it.  solomon's a relatively inexpensive hire for what he's going to be asked to do, at least initially, which is replace mcnab.  his so-called mutual split from the kings sounds like the nice way to say that the kings want to move things around in the executive branch a bit as they try to exit their rebuild.  we really need to see who they replace him with.  

i'm not convinced this is a lead into some big shake up with the ducks.  and, i'm not all that optimistic about his performance prospects...  i'm still trying to figure out what sutter did for us for a year.

Edited by Fisix

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