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Is Eichel a Duck Yet?

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59 minutes ago, dtsdlaw said:

I am with you to a point. I still think our top-6 Center depth is very concerning. If nothing is added there before the season starts, our top-6 could get caved in again, which would set a bad tone for the whole team. But I have more optimism about the rest of the roster than most others around here. This group is better than what they showed last season, and I think the new assistants and a full training camp will help them immensely. I expect them to be much more organized than what we saw last season, and I think this is a 75-78 point team right now if we don't lose any top players to season-ending injuries. Adding a top-6 center would make them an 83-87 point team. Not enough for the playoffs, but vastly better than what most are expecting.

In the last full NHL season 75-78 points was good for 5th or 6th worst overall record. Which is probably about right based on our roster quality versus other rosters. Like I said above, the Ducks aren't as bad as Buffalo or Arizona, but are probably about as bad as New Jersey and Columbus. So I'm thinking they would probably finish with the 3rd-5th worst record based on the current roster. A lot of things would have to go right for this team to finish any higher.

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8 minutes ago, BombaysTripleDeke said:

Yeah, that’s the rub. Would another team sign off on a surgery that Buffalo is refusing to and take that risk on? I’m not sure why they would while paying the hefty price to acquire him. That’s why I don’t think a trade is happening until his injury situation is figured out.

Imo, the Ducks are easily a bottom-3 roster and that’s only because Arizona and Buffalo are actively tanking this season. I’m surprised that Seattle is viewed favorably after they made it a point not to assemble as good of a roster as possible. Right now, I’d say the Ducks are a bottom-5 team and expect them to have a modest improvement from last season assuming they remain mostly healthy. How much the Ducks improve are dependent on how much Zegras and Drysdale contribute (Zegras putting up 40 points would pretty good imo.) Rakell and Comtois picking up their scoring and of course, how good Gibson is. I expect them to be bad but not be as much of a tire fire as last year.

I actually forgot about Seattle. They have a good looking blueline, but I think they are going to struggle to score goals with their current lineup of forwards. They could finish in a similar spot to Anaheim.

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1 hour ago, nieder said:

This is my understanding, yes. The team has the final call on what treatment should be done. The players have agreed to this by agreeing to the terms of the CBA, so it's a bit of an ethical grey area as the players have basically signed away that right to choose. Though usually this wouldn't happen as most players and teams would work together to decide on the best treatment.

Basically what the CBA does allow is for the player to get a second and third opinion from other doctors. The CBA requires that the team doctor "gives serious consideration" to these other opinions, but there is nothing in the CBA that says the team doctor gets overruled.

I wonder if Eichel could threaten to retire on the eve of the season if they try to suspend him. I believe a player who retires due to an injury sustained while playing hockey for the club is entitled to every cent remaining on his contract. My understanding is also that a retired player's salary does not count against the salary cap, and since Buffalo is currently $7.3M below the floor with only Mittelstadt, Dahlin, and Jokiharju remaining as pending RFAs, an Eichel retirement would almost certainly make them non-compliant at the last possible moment, meaning that they could be fined ($1M minimum for cap circumvention) and docked draft picks.

Edited by dtsdlaw

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3 minutes ago, dtsdlaw said:

I wonder if Eichel could threaten to retire on the eve of the season if they try to suspend him. I believe a player who retires due to an injury sustained while playing hockey for the club is entitled to every cent remaining on his contract. My understanding is also that a retired player's salary does not count against the salary cap, and since Buffalo is currently $7.3M below the floor with only Mittelstadt, Dahlin, and Jokiharju remaining as pending RFAs, an Eichel retirement would almost certainly make them non-compliant at the last possible moment, meaning that they could be fined and docked draft picks.

I have not heard of this before.  Wouldn't Chris Pronger have done this if it were true?  Or did he not retire because of a cap recapture issue? 

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4 minutes ago, Gorbachav55 said:

I have not heard of this before.  Wouldn't Chris Pronger have done this if it were true?  Or did he not retire because of a cap recapture issue? 

There are different rules for players who are 35 years old when they sign the contract. I don't think they get the rest of their contract if they retire, that's why they just go on LTIR.

10 minutes ago, dtsdlaw said:

I wonder if Eichel could threaten to retire on the eve of the season if they try to suspend him. I believe a player who retires due to an injury sustained while playing hockey for the club is entitled to every cent remaining on his contract. My understanding is also that a retired player's salary does not count against the salary cap, and since Buffalo is currently $7.3M below the floor with only Mittelstadt, Dahlin, and Jokiharju remaining as pending RFAs, an Eichel retirement would almost certainly make them non-compliant at the last possible moment, meaning that they could be fined ($1M minimum for cap circumvention) and docked draft picks.

I mean, he could. He would be leaving a lot of potential future career earnings on the table but he could take $50M and run and that is nothing to sneeze at. The Sabres would likely have no recourse since a player can choose to retire whenever they want, right? I just don't see how the Sabres come out of this ahead, they needed to move him while there were more suiters before free agency opens. Now their options are limited and the league knows they are backed up against the wall here.

 

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1 minute ago, Gorbachav55 said:

I have not heard of this before.  Wouldn't Chris Pronger have done this if it were true?  Or did he not retire because of a cap recapture issue? 

I think they all agree to go on LTIR to help the club. This is from the SPC in the CBA (Exhibit 1)

Quote

(d) It is also agreed that if the Player, in the sole judgment of the Club's physician, is disabled and unable to perform his duties as a hockey Player by reason of an injury sustained during the course of his employment as a hockey Player, including travel with his team or on business requested by the Club, he shall be entitled to receive his remaining Paragraph 1 Salary and Signing Bonuses due in accordance with the terms of this SPC for the remaining stated term of this SPC as long as the said disability and inability to perform continue but in no event beyond the expiration date of the fixed term of this SPC.

Buffalo's doctors have already determined Eichel unfit to play and in need of surgery. The SPC also doesn't say anything about the player being required to undergo surgeries to try to return to play. 

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2 hours ago, dtsdlaw said:

I think they all agree to go on LTIR to help the club. This is from the SPC in the CBA (Exhibit 1)

Buffalo's doctors have already determined Eichel unfit to play and in need of surgery. The SPC also doesn't say anything about the player being required to undergo surgeries to try to return to play. 

I don't see any legal way that the club can require him - or any player - to have a specific surgery.  Especially if there is an alternative.  I don't think that would fly.

Like I said, I think they would have to try to void his contract.  And then the legal battle would ensue.  He has a legit remedy to his problem, that will get him playing again.  It is his life and health and playing career.  They don't like it, at all. Sounds like a Mexican standoff.

 

So, everything you guys have said after I said "BUF handled this the worst possible way" leads me right back to that fact.  They should have signed off on the surgery.  It is not dangerous, and is not risky.  He's not running a risk of never playing again or being half the player he was.  Why would HE want the procedure if that was a risk? The team doctors - either on their own or at the behest of management - just nixed it.  Not because of any inherent problems with the procedure, just because it has not been performed on an NHL player.  Similar to Tommy John surgery in baseball back when it was performed on... Tommy John.

If it doesn't alleviate his cervical issues then he just gets the fusion - I think all sides are in agreement on that, because at that point that would be the only path.  The drawback to that is more time missed.

I think BUF just has a bad relationship with Eichel and vice versa.  And the team had more control over this situation at the beginning than they do now.  They created their own problem.

And I think it's a little odd that we should just accept that BUF should not have any risk.  Who signed Eichel to the $80 million, 8-year contract?  Was there any risk involved in that?

 

Edited by tommer-1

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1 hour ago, tommer-1 said:

I don't see any legal way that the club can require him - or any player - to have a specific surgery.  Especially if there is an alternative.  I don't think that would fly.

Like I said, I think they would have to try to void his contract.  And then the legal battle would ensue.  He has a legit remedy to his problem, that will get him playing again.  It is his life and health and playing career.  They don't like it, at all. Sounds like a Mexican standoff.

 

So, everything you guys have said after I said "BUF handled this the worst possible way" leads me right back to that fact.  They should have signed off on the surgery.  It is not dangerous, and is not risky.  He's not running a risk of never playing again or being half the player he was.  Why would HE want the procedure if that was a risk? The team doctors - either on their own or at the behest of management - just nixed it.  Not because of any inherent problems with the procedure, just because it has not been performed on an NHL player.  Similar to Tommy John surgery in baseball back when it was performed on... Tommy John.

If it doesn't alleviate his cervical issues then he just gets the fusion - I think all sides are in agreement on that, because at that point that would be the only path.  The drawback to that is more time missed.

I think BUF just has a bad relationship with Eichel and vice versa.  And the team had more control over this situation at the beginning than they do now.  They created their own problem.

And I think it's a little odd that we should just accept that BUF should not have any risk.  Who signed Eichel to the $80 million, 8-year contract?  Was there any risk involved in that?

 

While the CBA doesn't say a player would be required to undergo surgery, it is pretty unambiguous that it is the team who gets final call on medical decisions. As all player contracts are tied to the CBA, if the player chooses not go through with the medical procedure determined necessary by the team, then I'm certain they could terminate his contract. However this is not a good outcome for Buffalo as Eichel could then sign with any other team. Buffalo might look for compensation in that situation for breach of contract.

Really, there needs to be a mechanism in the CBA for this sort of situation. If the team doctor does not agree with the player's doctor, the third doctor's decision should be binding on both parties, like an arbitrator ruling. But from my understanding they can get a third doctor's opinion, but it is not binding on the team doctor.

Edited by nieder

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3 hours ago, nieder said:

This is my understanding, yes. The team has the final call on what treatment should be done. The players have agreed to this by agreeing to the terms of the CBA, so it's a bit of an ethical grey area as the players have basically signed away that right to choose. Though usually this wouldn't happen as most players and teams would work together to decide on the best treatment.

Basically what the CBA does allow is for the player to get a second and third opinion from other doctors. The CBA requires that the team doctor "gives serious consideration" to these other opinions, but there is nothing in the CBA that says the team doctor gets overruled.

they can't physically force a player to have surgery, but if a player refuses to choose the course of medical treatment the team admin believes is best, then i believe the team can then cancel the player's contract without paying whatever financial obligations remain in the contract.

for Eichel, that's a huge gamble.  if he gets the fusion the team wants, the full remaining value of his contract is protected regardless of the outcome of the fusion surgery and/or how well he plays afterwards, and he gets his guaranteed $10/season until 2026 (count it up, that's $50M).  if, instead, Eichel goes against the team's medical edict and elects to have the disk in his neck replaced, then the team can simply cancel Eichel's contract and disappear any obligation to pay him a single cent of that currently-guaranteed $50M.  i think there's a time limit on how long the team can wait before pulling the trigger on canceling his contract - i don't think they can wait long enough to see if his recovery is good to decide whether or not to honor or cancel the contract.  it's probably no more than a 30 day period in which they have to act (might be as short as 5 days?), and any longer than that, they are deemed to have chosen to honor his contract.  it would be a horrible look for Buff to try to wait to see what the outcome is, so my guess is that the team would choose to cancel the contract once they knew Eichel had chosen to go against their wishes.  well, to be fair, this is already a horrible look for Buff, so i'm not sure what they have to lose at this point.

insurance wise, i doubt this particular set of soap opera circumstances was contemplated, but there may be a general contractual clause in the policy that the insurance company could use to say the team isn't covered if the team chooses to honor the contract after a player elects a critical surgical procedure the team didn't approve.  that'd be extra pressure on Buff to cancel the contract - to mitigate the (in my view very substantial) financial risk.

so, if Eichel gets the disk replacement surgery without permission, the most likely outcome is that his $50M contract evaporates, and, after he recovers, he'll have to prove himself all over again before any team will offer him a contract.  i think it's extremely likely that Eichel wouldn't get an offer anywhere near the $50M he has now, even if he skates and practices just fine in a pony show.  he'd have to complete at least a full NHL or European league season with stellar stats and zero injuries (especially related to his neck) before he could command something approaching the $10M he has in hand right now.

on top of all this, if Eichel simply refuses to participate in the surgery and rehab and team activities, sort of as a performative hold-out or delay tactic to try to get traded or generate leverage for his desired surgery, Buff has the right to cancel his contract then, too.

i don't know what i'd do.  i guess i'd talk to people who had the fusion and see what their quality of life has been, but what could they say that would get me to give up a guaranteed $50M?

the big-boy pants thing to do, for both Eichel and Buffalo, is to write up an amended contract that allows Eichel to get the surgery he wants but without leaving Buffalo holding an immense and empty money bag if the result is poor.  Eichel wants something that's important to him, and Buffalo wants something that's important to them... it seems like it's in both their best interests to negotiate a fair sharing of the risk involved.  any other result is going to be Eichel losing a TON of money, unless there's some clause in the CBA that protects him more than what I've outlined above.

taking a step back and looking at this pragmatically, i think almost everyone would get the fusion and take the guaranteed $50M - it's not like fusion is an absolutely Dehydrated Donkey Dungty result.  so, the fact that Eichel is delaying here might be indicating to us that the real sticking point to all this is that he wants to use his injury as an opportunity to get away from Buffalo, whether it's because he doesn't like the admin (for bucking his medical wishes) or he doesn't like the team's outlook over the next 10 years, is almost immaterial.  i guess it makes me less sympathetic to his plight.

based on this analysis, i think arbitration would go fairly poorly for Eichel.

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2 minutes ago, Fisix said:

they can't physically force a player to have surgery, but if a player refuses to choose the course of medical treatment the team admin believes is best, then i believe the team can then cancel the player's contract without paying whatever financial obligations remain in the contract.

for Eichel, that's a huge gamble.  if he gets the fusion the team wants, the full remaining value of his contract is protected regardless of the outcome of the fusion surgery and/or how well he plays afterwards, and he gets his guaranteed $10/season until 2026 (count it up, that's $50M).  if, instead, Eichel goes against the team's medical edict and elects to have the disk in his neck replaced, then the team can simply cancel Eichel's contract and disappear any obligation to pay him a single cent of that currently-guaranteed $50M.  i think there's a time limit on how long the team can wait before pulling the trigger on canceling his contract - i don't think they can wait long enough to see if his recovery is good to decide whether or not to honor or cancel the contract.  it's probably no more than a 30 day period in which they have to act (might be as short as 5 days?), and any longer than that, they are deemed to have chosen to honor his contract.  it would be a horrible look for Buff to try to wait to see what the outcome is, so my guess is that the team would choose to cancel the contract once they knew Eichel had chosen to go against their wishes.  well, to be fair, this is already a horrible look for Buff, so i'm not sure what they have to lose at this point.

insurance wise, i doubt this particular set of soap opera circumstances was contemplated, but there may be a general contractual clause in the policy that the insurance company could use to say the team isn't covered if the team chooses to honor the contract after a player elects a critical surgical procedure the team didn't approve.  that'd be extra pressure on Buff to cancel the contract - to mitigate the (in my view very substantial) financial risk.

so, if Eichel gets the disk replacement surgery without permission, the most likely outcome is that his $50M contract evaporates, and, after he recovers, he'll have to prove himself all over again before any team will offer him a contract.  i think it's extremely likely that Eichel wouldn't get an offer anywhere near the $50M he has now, even if he skates and practices just fine in a pony show.  he'd have to complete at least a full NHL or European league season with stellar stats and zero injuries (especially related to his neck) before he could command something approaching the $10M he has in hand right now.

on top of all this, if Eichel simply refuses to participate in the surgery and rehab and team activities, sort of as a performative hold-out or delay tactic to try to get traded or generate leverage for his desired surgery, Buff has the right to cancel his contract then, too.

i don't know what i'd do.  i guess i'd talk to people who had the fusion and see what their quality of life has been, but what could they say that would get me to give up a guaranteed $50M?

the big-boy pants thing to do, for both Eichel and Buffalo, is to write up an amended contract that allows Eichel to get the surgery he wants but without leaving Buffalo holding an immense and empty money bag if the result is poor.  Eichel wants something that's important to him, and Buffalo wants something that's important to them... it seems like it's in both their best interests to negotiate a fair sharing of the risk involved.  any other result is going to be Eichel losing a TON of money, unless there's some clause in the CBA that protects him more than what I've outlined above.

taking a step back and looking at this pragmatically, i think almost everyone would get the fusion and take the guaranteed $50M - it's not like fusion is an absolutely Dehydrated Donkey Dungty result.  so, the fact that Eichel is delaying here might be indicating to us that the real sticking point to all this is that he wants to use his injury as an opportunity to get away from Buffalo, whether it's because he doesn't like the admin (for bucking his medical wishes) or he doesn't like the team's outlook over the next 10 years, is almost immaterial.  i guess it makes me less sympathetic to his plight.

based on this analysis, i think arbitration would go fairly poorly for Eichel.

Right, they're not going to hold him at gunpoint in the surgical suite. But essentially, the team is forcing the player to get the surgery if he does not want to be in breach of contract. Then he risks having the contract terminated (and I am guessing liable for damages too, because losing an elite player for nothing is probably a bigger deal for Buffalo than it would be for Eichel as he still has the potential to sign with another team and get to the same earnings level). The best option for both sides is a trade. Buffalo don't lose their most valuable asset for nothing, and Eichel gets to keep his $50M over the next 5 years.

I don't know that the CBA would allow a secondary contract like the one you are describing. But I agree with you, I don't think arbitration would go well for him.

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2 hours ago, tommer-1 said:

I don't see any legal way that the club can require him - or any player - to have a specific surgery.  Especially if there is an alternative.  I don't think that would fly.

Like I said, I think they would have to try to void his contract.  And then the legal battle would ensue.  He has a legit remedy to his problem, that will get him playing again.  It is his life and health and playing career.  They don't like it, at all. Sounds like a Mexican standoff.

 

So, everything you guys have said after I said "BUF handled this the worst possible way" leads me right back to that fact.  They should have signed off on the surgery.  It is not dangerous, and is not risky.  He's not running a risk of never playing again or being half the player he was.  Why would HE want the procedure if that was a risk? The team doctors - either on their own or at the behest of management - just nixed it.  Not because of any inherent problems with the procedure, just because it has not been performed on an NHL player.  Similar to Tommy John surgery in baseball back when it was performed on... Tommy John.

If it doesn't alleviate his cervical issues then he just gets the fusion - I think all sides are in agreement on that, because at that point that would be the only path.  The drawback to that is more time missed.

I think BUF just has a bad relationship with Eichel and vice versa.  And the team had more control over this situation at the beginning than they do now.  They created their own problem.

And I think it's a little odd that we should just accept that BUF should not have any risk.  Who signed Eichel to the $80 million, 8-year contract?  Was there any risk involved in that?

 

I'm trying not to defend Buffalo too hard here, but I do think it's going too far to claim that they're utterly and completely wrong.  I'm willing to change my mind on that if you can find quotes from doctors that Eichel's "not running a risk of never playing again."  Although even that goes too far, since really all we're concerned about is risk that the surgery will cause any health issues that result in Eichel being less of a player or being chronically injured.  I find it hard to believe that you could make that guarantee with ANY spinal surgery, but I'm happy to be corrected if there are doctors saying that.  The quotes that I've seen have mostly been doctors saying that while there is some risk, it's not as bad as Buffalo is making it out to be, and there are other athletes that have had the surgery successfully.  But that's not the same as no risk or immaterial risk.  

Tommy John surgery is a poor example of your point since there are many, many pitchers who have not returned to their former pitching ability after getting it.  It's gotten much better over the years, but the list of pitchers who got Tommy John and never got their mojo back is extensive.  

I don't think anyone said that Buffalo shouldn't carry any risk.  They do.  But it's also unfair to think that Buffalo shouldn't try to manage that risk.  I'm in agreement with you that they're being too conservative and it's costing them.  But I don't think they're being completely unreasonable.

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man if it gets to the point of Buffalo terminating the Eichel contract......

holy Dehydrated Donkey Dung Adams should be fired on the spot....you literally got NOTHING for him. This is why I think the longer this goes the less leverage and value he's going to get for Eichel. He really doesn't have all the time in the world. As much as he likes to pretend he does.

Got nothing against him. He inherited this mess...and that sucks. But man...he's gotta come down on the ask sooner than later if he wants to salvage this. I'm sure teams aren't just lowballing him and offering up 3rds or 2nds lol but teams aint getting rid of their prize prospect.

The problem is if he gets something a little less than he's asking for now...it'll look like he failed. When really if he keeps this going he's going to get less than he's even being offered right now. It's unfortunate for him, but he needs to bite the bullet.

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1 minute ago, Jasoaks said:

man if it gets to the point of Buffalo terminating the Eichel contract......

holy Dehydrated Donkey Dung Adams should be fired on the spot....you literally got NOTHING for him. This is why I think the longer this goes the less leverage and value he's going to get for Eichel. He really doesn't have all the time in the world. As much as he likes to pretend he does.

Got nothing against him. He inherited this mess...and that sucks. But man...he's gotta come down on the ask sooner than later if he wants to salvage this. I'm sure teams aren't just lowballing him and offering up 3rds or 2nds lol but teams aint getting rid of their prize prospect.

The problem is if he gets something a little less than he's asking for now...it'll look like he failed. When really if he keeps this going he's going to get less than he's even being offered right now. It's unfortunate for him, but he needs to bite the bullet.

On the same token, any team that trades for Eichel is inheriting the same risk that Buffalo just got out of and also that team gave up assets to inherit the risk. The Sabres appear to be looking for an offer for a healthy Jack Eichel. If Adams got offers that included a 1st round pick + assets and turned it down then he really has some kind of mental problem. Even say if the Ducks offered the 2023 1st round + Henrique, Mahura, Steel and say the rights to Thrun and Adams turned it down now, he's crazy. 

Honestly, I don't feel sorry for Adams at all. He accepted the GM job for the Sabres knowing the issue. He even said he's in no hurry to trade Eichel...so what is his plan?..lol. You're right in saying that no team is giving up their prized prospects in a trade for a player with a neck injury that also has 50M left on his contract. Adams for some reason, doesn't get that. 

 

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6 minutes ago, perry_mvp said:

On the same token, any team that trades for Eichel is inheriting the same risk that Buffalo just got out of and also that team gave up assets to inherit the risk. The Sabres appear to be looking for an offer for a healthy Jack Eichel. If Adams got offers that included a 1st round pick + assets and turned it down then he really has some kind of mental problem. Even say if the Ducks offered the 2023 1st round + Henrique, Mahura, Steel and say the rights to Thrun and Adams turned it down now, he's crazy. 

Honestly, I don't feel sorry for Adams at all. He accepted the GM job for the Sabres knowing the issue. He even said he's in no hurry to trade Eichel...so what is his plan?..lol. You're right in saying that no team is giving up their prized prospects in a trade for a player with a neck injury that also has 50M left on his contract. Adams for some reason, doesn't get that. 

 

Yeah, true about Adams knowing the situation. I think his plan is pretend like he has no rush to put pressure on the other teams....despite all the other teams knowing there's no pressure on them lol

But I would assume any team trading for Eichel is going to let him take the surgery he wants. I really really can't imagine a team seeing all this and then giving up assets and being like "welp, we don't want you to do the surgery you want!"

Honestly, with everything everyone has been saying about the surgery...I'm guessing it's going to be fine. And Eichel is going to be fine. Sure there's SOME more risk...but it still seems pretty OK.

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2 hours ago, nieder said:

Right, they're not going to hold him at gunpoint in the surgical suite. But essentially, the team is forcing the player to get the surgery if he does not want to be in breach of contract. Then he risks having the contract terminated (and I am guessing liable for damages too, because losing an elite player for nothing is probably a bigger deal for Buffalo than it would be for Eichel as he still has the potential to sign with another team and get to the same earnings level). The best option for both sides is a trade. Buffalo don't lose their most valuable asset for nothing, and Eichel gets to keep his $50M over the next 5 years.

I don't know that the CBA would allow a secondary contract like the one you are describing. But I agree with you, I don't think arbitration would go well for him.

i don't think there are any monetary damages for the player breaching the player contract, but i do think there are protections against a player breaching just to go to a different NHL team.  i think the CBA allows the league to void any contract the player forms with another team if the player breaches their current player contract simply to circumvent the CBA protections for the teams.  i should probably be looking all this stuff up.  but, since i'm already here, i'll go ahead and guess that the league can probably void such contracts for multiple seasons, like 5, or maybe indefinitely.

then the question becomes - would the league prevent Eichel from playing in the NHL if he breaches his contract to have the surgery (and actually has the new surgery), and gives up the guaranteed $50M as a result?  the crazy thing is that i think the league and even the other owners might not be against Eichel being allowed to come back and play, though maybe after a 1 season ban (that coincidentally covers all his recovery and rehab time).  they don't want to be seen as medical fascists, but they also don't want to have to carry a player contract when a player decides on a relatively risky medical procedure (in their opinion, or in their insurance carrier's opinion).  they might view the release of the $50M obligation enough of a quid pro quo.

yeah, i also don't know if the CBA would allow a secondary or amended contract for risk.  they aren't supposed to allow it, precisely so that players don't feel pressured to enter into that kind of arrangement at the behest of the team.  at the same time, i'm not sure the CBA contemplated the insurance carrier as a third party inserting their own risk assessments into a situation like this... hmm.  i'm doing a lot of guessing here, where we could actually read through the CBA and know better.

it's not a complex problem, but it certainly is a messy one.  a mess i think the Ducks should avoid.

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I haven't read any in depth pieces on the Eichel situation but what I have seen mentioned a couple of times is that buffalo's team doctor is some kind of neck injury guru who apparently knows his stuff. Suppose we trade for Eichel and we let him have the surgery he wants. I'm not too confident in our medical staff to be honest. Keeping players healthy hasn't exactly been our forte.

BM has refused for years to rebuild. We were simply 'retooling'. Over the course of our not so succesful retool we have acquired to some solid pieces for the future. Now that we are so far in the rebuild (let's just call it that) I don't want to see that messed up. Who's going to make us better? Eichel or a package of let's say Dostal, McTavish, Perreault, 2022 1st rounder and Rakell.
A healthy Eichel is a game changer but adding him to this team will do nothing for us next season since he'll miss a significant portion of it and I seriously doubt we'd be competing the year after. I'd rather take my chances on our package. If those guys reach their full potential we're talking a starting goalie, a good 2nd line center, a top 6 winger with a killer shot, a probably top 10 pick in a deep draft and Rakell who IMO is one of the only exciting players this team has. 

What I do like about having healthy Eichel is that his presence might make it easier to attract other UFA's. Then again if our prospects reach their potential that too might be enticing. 

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2 hours ago, DucksFan_08 said:

I haven't read any in depth pieces on the Eichel situation but what I have seen mentioned a couple of times is that buffalo's team doctor is some kind of neck injury guru who apparently knows his stuff. Suppose we trade for Eichel and we let him have the surgery he wants. I'm not too confident in our medical staff to be honest. Keeping players healthy hasn't exactly been our forte.

BM has refused for years to rebuild. We were simply 'retooling'. Over the course of our not so succesful retool we have acquired to some solid pieces for the future. Now that we are so far in the rebuild (let's just call it that) I don't want to see that messed up. Who's going to make us better? Eichel or a package of let's say Dostal, McTavish, Perreault, 2022 1st rounder and Rakell.
A healthy Eichel is a game changer but adding him to this team will do nothing for us next season since he'll miss a significant portion of it and I seriously doubt we'd be competing the year after. I'd rather take my chances on our package. If those guys reach their full potential we're talking a starting goalie, a good 2nd line center, a top 6 winger with a killer shot, a probably top 10 pick in a deep draft and Rakell who IMO is one of the only exciting players this team has. 

What I do like about having healthy Eichel is that his presence might make it easier to attract other UFA's. Then again if our prospects reach their potential that too might be enticing. 

What I get is For Ducks who are in this Holding Pattern it's Catch-22.

DuckPride 4ever

MooseDuck

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One thing is for sure: this is not a simple situation:

 

34.4 Second Medical Opinions.

(a) A Player may seek a second medical opinion regarding a diagnosis made by a team physician or a course of treatment (including the timing thereof) prescribed by a team physician ("Second Medical Opinion") from a list of medical specialists mutually agreed upon by the Joint H & S Committee ("Second Medical Opinion List"). The medical specialists on the Second Medical Opinion List (the "Second Medical Opinion Physician(s)") shall be listed by specialty and by geographic region. The Joint H & S Committee shall review and update the Second Medical Opinion List on an annual basis, and shall also have the ability to remove any Second Medical Opinion Physician(s) from the Second Medical Opinion List at any time if there are credible concerns regarding a Second Medical Opinion Physician's integrity, bias, motivation, professionalism or qualifications.

(b) A Player may seek a Second Medical Opinion from a Second Medical Opinion Physician who is located outside of the geographic region within which the Player's Club is located, provided that the Player is not absent from the Club for an unreasonable period of time (e.g., missing a game is unreasonable).

(c) If a Player uses the services of a Second Medical Opinion Physician, and satisfies the following conditions in (i) or (ii), and in either event (iii), the Club shall pay the reasonable costs for the services of a Second Medical Opinion Physician, including reasonable transportation and hotel costs:

(i) In circumstances in which Player wishes to invoke his Second Medical Opinion rights, in the context of a Player using a Second Medical Opinion Physician, prior to undergoing a Second Medical Opinion a Player shall advise the Club in writing of his decision to seek a Second Medical Opinion, and the name of the Second Medical Opinion Physician. The Club shall provide such Second Medical Opinion Physician with all relevant Medical Information regarding the Player, with a copy to the Player.

(ii) In circumstances in which Player wishes to invoke his Second Medical Opinion rights, in the context of a Player proposing to use a physician who is not on the Second Medical Opinion List ("Other Physician"), the Player shall advise the Club in writing of his decision to seek a Second Medical Opinion and shall provide the Club the name of the proposed Other Physician, and shall request the Club's prior written approval. Expenses for Other Physicians shall be authorized and paid for by the Club only if the Club provides prior written approval to the Player. The Club shall provide such Other Physician with all relevant Medical Information regarding the Player, with a copy to the Player.

(iii) In either the case of (i) or (ii), following such Second Medical Opinion, the team physician must be furnished promptly with a report concerning the diagnosis, examination, and course of treatment recommended by the Second Medical Opinion Physician or the Other Physician, and shall input such report into the AHMS.

 

(d) Following issuance of a Second Medical Opinion, the team physician will consult with the Second Medical Opinion Physician (or the Other Physician) and the Player. (i) In the event no consensus on diagnosis and/or course of treatment is reached, the team physician and the Second Medical Opinion Physician (or the Other Physician) may (but are not required to) agree to send the Player to a qualified third physician expert ("Third Physician Expert") in the appropriate medical specialty who may assist in resolving the dispute between the team physician and the Second Medical Opinion Physician (or Other Physician) as to the diagnosis and/or appropriate course of treatment, subject to the consent of the Player (to agree to see a Third Physician Expert, not regarding the identity of the Third Physician Expert). (ii) If the Player consents pursuant to subsection (i) above, the Club shall provide such Third Physician Expert with all relevant Medical Information regarding the Player, including the records of the Second Medical Opinion Physician (or Other Physician), with a copy to the Player, and the Player shall submit himself to examination by the Third Physician Expert, who shall make a recommendation on diagnosis and/or course of treatment. (iii) Following such examination by the Third Physician Expert, the team physician must be furnished promptly with a report concerning the diagnosis or course of treatment recommended by such physician, with a copy to the Player, and shall input such report into the AHMS.

(e) Following the later of: (i) issuance of the Second Medical Opinion; or (ii) issuance of the recommendation on diagnosis or course of treatment by the Third Physician Expert, if any, the team physician shall determine the diagnosis and/or course of treatment (including the timing thereof) after consulting with the Second Medical Opinion Physician and the Third Physician Expert, if any, and giving due consideration to his/her/their recommendation(s).

(f) Nothing in this Article shall affect the procedures and remedies under Paragraph 5 of the SPC (or Section 17.7 of the CBA) regarding fitness to play determinations. Any disputes regarding a team physician's fitness to play determination shall be resolved exclusively in accordance with the provisions of Paragraph 5 of the SPC (or Section 17.7 of the CBA). In the event there is a conflict between this Section 34.4 and Paragraph 5 (or Section 17.7 of the CBA), Paragraph 5 (or Section 17.7) shall govern. In the event a Player has an injury that warrants a determination regarding a Player's fitness or unfitness to play, and also involves a diagnosis and/or course of treatment for which Player seeks to obtain a Second Medical Opinion, the issues of Section 17.7 and Paragraph 5 of the SPC shall be resolved first, and only after conclusion of that process as provided for in those provisions of the CBA and SPC, respectively, shall the Player be permitted to exercise any rights to a Second Medical Opinion under this Section 34.4.

 

34.5 Player's Right to a Surgeon of His Choice.

(a) In the event that the team physician determines that a surgical procedure is the appropriate course of treatment for the Player, a Player shall have the right to choose the surgeon who will perform the surgical procedure, provided that the surgeon selected by the Player is either on the Second Medical Opinion List, or is approved in writing by the Club (for surgery) prior to such surgery. The Club will be responsible for the reasonable expenses of any such surgical procedure; provided, however, that the Club, the team physician, ATs and any other representative of the Club shall not be responsible for or incur any liability (other than the cost of surgery) for or relating to the adequacy or competency of such surgery or other related medical services rendered in connection with such surgery.

(b) Following such surgery, the team physician must be furnished promptly with all relevant records from the surgeon regarding the surgery, with a copy to the Player.

(c) Following the surgery, the Player shall return to the care of the team physician. The team physician shall give due consideration to any post-surgical rehabilitation protocol issued by the surgeon.

(d) "Reasonable expenses" includes the reasonable expenses (including reasonable transportation and hotel costs) associated with required follow-up examination(s) with the physician who performed the surgery, but does not include travel costs to see a physician for routine examination(s) that could have been appropriately performed by a local doctor designated by the Club.

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39 minutes ago, tommer-1 said:

"Also in Simpson’s report is that the Sabres are still asking for somewhere between 4-6 pieces. They continue to demand mostly futures, including any interested team’s top two prospects which no one has remotely been willing to do."

 

....uhhhhhhh you mean to tell me they would be asking for BOTH Drysdale and Zegras?? Heeeeeeeeeeeellll no.

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31 minutes ago, tommer-1 said:

A couple of interesting things there, but still a lot of questions.  There is no confirmation about which surgery Eichel will be getting - Buffalo could be caving and allowing him to get the surgery he wants, or it could be the other way around.

Buffalo's asking price is still high.  I think this makes sense for them.  It allows them to try to extract as much value from Eichel as possible by letting teams know they're not going to sell low on him.  It also gives them time to potentially convince Eichel that the organization is headed in the right direction and maybe get him to drop his trade demands.  I know reconciliation seems impossible at this point, but we're not privy to the conversations they're having.  In the meantime, if no team is willing to meet the asking price, Buffalo loses very little.  They're clearly tanking this season, with or without Eichel, and the lack of Eichel (or players coming back in an Eichel trade) just makes it more likely they'll be pulling down a top 3 pick next summer.  

The juiciest tidbit was at the bottom when it talked about the change of agents.  It seems like a lot of the impasse might have had to do with Eichel's former agent.  Perhaps he was giving Eichel bad advice and/or dealing with Sabres in a manner that was keeping the situation at loggerheads.  Perhaps with Brisson's "professional[ism]," the Sabres and Eichel can reach an agreement about his surgery, support his rehab, and then convince him to get back on the ice so that other teams can see he's fully healthy before they trade him.  In the best case scenario for Buffalo, they manage to show him over that time that the organization isn't the dumpster fire everyone thinks it is.  I doubt that happens, but even if not, they still get more for their star player.

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1 minute ago, Jasoaks said:

"Also in Simpson’s report is that the Sabres are still asking for somewhere between 4-6 pieces. They continue to demand mostly futures, including any interested team’s top two prospects which no one has remotely been willing to do."

 

....uhhhhhhh you mean to tell me they would be asking for BOTH Drysdale and Zegras?? Heeeeeeeeeeeellll no.

Is there ANY team that would give up their top two prospects, PLUS, for Eichel?

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2 minutes ago, tommer-1 said:

Is there ANY team that would give up their top two prospects, PLUS, for Eichel?

Seattle?

:lol:

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43 minutes ago, Gorbachav55 said:

A couple of interesting things there, but still a lot of questions.  There is no confirmation about which surgery Eichel will be getting - Buffalo could be caving and allowing him to get the surgery he wants, or it could be the other way around.

Buffalo's asking price is still high.  I think this makes sense for them.  It allows them to try to extract as much value from Eichel as possible by letting teams know they're not going to sell low on him.  It also gives them time to potentially convince Eichel that the organization is headed in the right direction and maybe get him to drop his trade demands.  I know reconciliation seems impossible at this point, but we're not privy to the conversations they're having.  In the meantime, if no team is willing to meet the asking price, Buffalo loses very little.  They're clearly tanking this season, with or without Eichel, and the lack of Eichel (or players coming back in an Eichel trade) just makes it more likely they'll be pulling down a top 3 pick next summer.  

The juiciest tidbit was at the bottom when it talked about the change of agents.  It seems like a lot of the impasse might have had to do with Eichel's former agent.  Perhaps he was giving Eichel bad advice and/or dealing with Sabres in a manner that was keeping the situation at loggerheads.  Perhaps with Brisson's "professional[ism]," the Sabres and Eichel can reach an agreement about his surgery, support his rehab, and then convince him to get back on the ice so that other teams can see he's fully healthy before they trade him.  In the best case scenario for Buffalo, they manage to show him over that time that the organization isn't the dumpster fire everyone thinks it is.  I doubt that happens, but even if not, they still get more for their star player.

If their asking price is absurdly high (and a team's top-2 prospects + other assets is ABSURD), then potential suitors drop out. We've already seen it with LA going in completely another direction. Pretty soon the only teams left in the running will be teams that can be equally as patient and don't have to make a deal. What does Buffalo get out of it if Anaheim, Columbus, and Arizona - three organizations under NO pressure from their owners to win - are the only teams still checking in on Eichel by October?

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46 minutes ago, Jasoaks said:

"Also in Simpson’s report is that the Sabres are still asking for somewhere between 4-6 pieces. They continue to demand mostly futures, including any interested team’s top two prospects which no one has remotely been willing to do."

 

....uhhhhhhh you mean to tell me they would be asking for BOTH Drysdale and Zegras?? Heeeeeeeeeeeellll no.

In the Ducks case, that could be up to interpretation of the "top two prospects". I would argue that Zegras and Drysdale are full time roster players and wouldn't be on the table. Tracy (top prospect), LaCombe (top prospect) then throw in Axel Andersson, Sam Coangelo and draft pick(s)?

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14 minutes ago, perry_mvp said:

In the Ducks case, that could be up to interpretation of the "top two prospects". I would argue that Zegras and Drysdale are full time roster players and wouldn't be on the table. Tracy (top prospect), LaCombe (top prospect) then throw in Axel Andersson, Sam Coangelo and draft pick(s)?

I agree on your assessment of Zegras and Drysdale, but McTavish is absolutely at the top of that list, and right behind him is most likely Perreault.  

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25 minutes ago, dtsdlaw said:

If their asking price is absurdly high (and a team's top-2 prospects + other assets is ABSURD), then potential suitors drop out. We've already seen it with LA going in completely another direction. Pretty soon the only teams left in the running will be teams that can be equally as patient and don't have to make a deal. What does Buffalo get out of it if Anaheim, Columbus, and Arizona - three organizations under NO pressure from their owners to win - are the only teams still checking in on Eichel by October?

Maybe they get their price or a package just short of it from one of those teams.  Or maybe they just keep Eichel.  Buffalo is nowhere close to contending.  They can afford to wait Eichel out for a year if they need to while they look for a package that makes sense, and maybe more teams get involved at the trade deadline, or next offseason.  If Eichel sits a year (or, if he agrees to play for Buffalo after his surgery in order to show teams he's healthy to facilitate a trade), Buffalo has lost nothing.  In fact, they might even be better, given that they're trying to lose.  And in the meantime, maybe they convince him to stay.

When Eichel was healthy and on his game, he was, what, a top 10 player in the league?  Buffalo will eventually come down on their asking price, but that's the value they're trying to replace.  If Adams isn't trying to do that, he isn't doing his job.  

Again, I think Buffalo should have let Eichel get the surgery a while ago so that they'd be farther along in this process by now and maybe have found a suitor who was convinced that his health was good.  But they stuck to their guns about the medical implications of the surgery and now they're making sure they don't sell an elite player for 50 cents on the dollar.  

I agree with you that the price is absurd where it's at, but it's all negotiating tactics.  Whoever is still sniffing around and asking about Eichel is serious, and Adams can figure out if those teams have a package that he'd even consider.  It's clear he thinks he can get more value by holding on to Eichel.

Edited by Gorbachav55

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